On Horses and Wagons (Full Version)

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srndac -> On Horses and Wagons (10/8/2008 10:11:02 AM)

Hello everybody!

In view of the Bombur's recently launched '1900-1960 v0.12' random scenario mod in which I had to (again) go in and 'fiddle the rules' a bit, I decided we all need to have a collective little chat on the subject of Horses and Wagons.

Before I start, I have to humbly ask you all to forgive me for making such a fuss out of a, what will seem, for most of you probably, a trivial subject. Trivial - because the Horses and Wagons were phased out during this period and replaced with a superior form of transport - Motorcycles and Trucks respectively.

But, even though I enjoy playing AT - which is all about modern warfare, my heart truly belongs to more historical periods, in which the Horse played a vital part. And since most of you here would handily beat me in the knowledge of modern tactics and equipment, I gladly leave to you the job of describing and defining the use and characteristics of Modern weapons, and at the same time ask you to consider a couple of aspects of 'older' style of warfare.

The question here won't be which is better: a Wagon or a Truck - that question has already been answered. The question that I wish to present to you here is: What is the difference between a Horse transport and a Wagon transport? Because claiming that these two are the same is equal to claiming that Motorcycles and Trucks are the same.

Note that I said Motorcycles in the previos sentence! It's because the individual horses (before they were replaced by Cars and Trucks) served the same role that is today served by civilian Motorcycles - as a quick transport for a single human - or, in military: infantryman.
Now, this is essentially Mounted Infantry, and the nearest thing to it today is Halftrack - which is another version of the Truck - which is another version of Wagon. Why there is no modern replacement for individal horses as mounts? Because all the modern vehicles use wheels - and the wheels tend to bog down in Woods and Mountains. Horses - on the other hand - have legs, just like men. And, just like men, can move much easier through the Woods and Hills than wheeled Trucks and Wagons - thus providing that mobility that is the reason people use them in AT.

But a single horse cannot provide the same transport as a Wagon. Not even 4 individual horses can provide the same transport as Wagon drawn by a 4-horse team. Why?
1. Because it's easier to pull things than carry them.
2. Because working in a team is much easier than working alone

Let's do the math:
A good workhorse can carry up to 100 kgs of cargo on his own. It also needs someone to control it - a rider or, even better, a guide. A guide can, in practice, control up to 4 horses - not counting the one he rides. So, one man and 5 horses, without a Wagon, can carry up to 400 kgs of cargo on longer distances.
Now, you probably noticed when you drive the car, that the higher power is only needed until the car starts to move - afterwards, it's only a matter of giving it enough power to keep it moving. The same thing is with the Wagons - the 4 horses in a team have to pull the hardest only to start the Wagon moving - the rest is just pulling it along. No, I won't be saying that's nothing, but this way they can easily move cargoes that are 3 or 4 times the size of the one they can carry. So, if the driver and the wagon itself weigh 100 kgs, the horse team can easily pull some 1000 kgs and more along.

Okay, not to bore you any longer, I'll get to the point:
A Horse (or better: A Cavalryman) can be best seen as a single, 4-legged, fast-moving soldier, armed with small arms, with no major transporting ability (that is: not cannon pulling) that needs someone to take care of his 'ride' when he dismounts and goes to battle. That last part is where the Stack Points come in - because they represent those soldiers who stay behind with the horses to make sure that Cavalry's transports don't run away during battle. Usually, 1 man could take care of 4 horses.
A Wagon is that arcahic form of transport that is not already replaced by the Truck only because it's cheaper. It doesn't need any horse-holders, and hence no Stack points. It maneuvers worse than Cavalry - because of the wheels, but better than Trucks - because of the horse team pulling it, so put it somewhere in between. It's basic transport capacity is the same as Trucks, but it's Strategic Capacity is far smaller than Trucks.

There, those were my 2 cents - for all they're worth.
Any questions? Comments? Rotten tomatoes? (I'd appreciate a couple of good ones too [;)])

Srndac




Widell -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/8/2008 7:29:09 PM)

Well, horse drawn "vehicles" was the major source of supply logistics resources in WWII (at least in Europe and on the East Front) until the Allied invasion in France, so it makes sense to have Horse & Wagon as an alternative to Truck. As for mounted cavalry, it was more or less rendered obsolete and I believe its last real use was during the German attack on Poland. Of course, Cavalry could be added as an Sf Type, but should not be very useful against the more modern types of units. Good recon and movement abilities, poor combat stats. Cost should be close to Infantry + Horse, so fairly expensive. I guess it can also be argued that the Horse that is in the SF Types today is really Horse & Wagon as it provide both transport and movement capabilities.

If you look at the time before WWII (like the Bombur mod), this of course change the role of Cavalry totally.




british exil -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/8/2008 8:57:03 PM)

Your thread got me wondering.

The SS had a few cav Divisions. Although best regarding them as mounted Inf.

Checked a bit on the net and found an article on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry#World_War_II

So Horses were widely used on the eastern fronts. But most often as wagons carrying supplies, weapons, wounded, etc. Or even to tow Art.


I do know that the German Army still have horses or rather mules. In the Gebirgsjäger Reg. they are used to carry heavy weapons and supplies through the mountains and similar terrain.

Plus the Lifeguards and the Blues and Royals (Household Cav.British Army) have horses but mainly for the parades and the Queens Birthday Parade. They don't use them for battle. Just in case you start thinking.

Mat




Widell -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/8/2008 10:44:25 PM)

I guess horses were common in Greece in WWII as well, again to carry supply etc, but not as horse mounted cavalry units. The name Cavalry is misleading in the sense a WWII and later Cavalry units does not need to rely on horses to go to battle. The name simply implies a certain mobility.




Bombur -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/9/2008 11:55:08 PM)

I understand srndacīs point and we agree on 90%. What he seems to want, however, is:
1-To have wagons instead of horses. I agree with him
2-To change cargo capacity for horses. We already have a cargo capacity of 20 (equal to that of early trucks) based on the estimative that 200 horses can carry about 20 tons (the same calculation he did). If we assume that a wagon unit is made of vehicles (wagons), and I think it is ok, then we will use the same number of vehicles for other units (so, 20 wagons). Assuming that one wagon carries one ton, the cargo capacity would still be around 20. So we should need no changes?
3-Changing stack points for wagons. We can agree on this.
Iīm very happy because Iīm getting some feedback on my mod.




Bombur -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/9/2008 11:57:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

Well, horse drawn "vehicles" was the major source of supply logistics resources in WWII (at least in Europe and on the East Front) until the Allied invasion in France, so it makes sense to have Horse & Wagon as an alternative to Truck. As for mounted cavalry, it was more or less rendered obsolete and I believe its last real use was during the German attack on Poland. Of course, Cavalry could be added as an Sf Type, but should not be very useful against the more modern types of units. Good recon and movement abilities, poor combat stats. Cost should be close to Infantry + Horse, so fairly expensive. I guess it can also be argued that the Horse that is in the SF Types today is really Horse & Wagon as it provide both transport and movement capabilities.

If you look at the time before WWII (like the Bombur mod), this of course change the role of Cavalry totally.



Widell, that os exactly how I defined cavalry in my mod (high cost, poor combat stats, good recon, extremely vunerable when attacking fortifications).




srndac -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/10/2008 5:47:16 PM)

@Bombur
Ahem, note that I said early trucks there Bombur!
Actually, WW2 trucks were able to carry twice the payload of a wagon ... 2.5 tons vs. about 1 to 1.5 tons ... [X(] so ... drop that idea.

@Widell and british exil
I have nothing to add here - nothing new for me.
However, if I might just add: Partisans here used horses to transport stuff across the mountains (note: horses - not wagons [;)]) especially mountain guns whenever they could capture them.
They tried to carry supplies but soon gave up - they managed to do the math in my first post. They switched to food depot system instead (read: foraging from villages)

Well, cheers!
srndac




Bombur -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/10/2008 11:27:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: srndac

@Bombur
Ahem, note that I said early trucks there Bombur!
Actually, WW2 trucks were able to carry twice the payload of a wagon ... 2.5 tons vs. about 1 to 1.5 tons ... [X(] so ... drop that idea.


-Thatīs how my mod works. Early trucks carry 1 ton (cargo capacity=20), Light trucks carry 1,5 tons (30), Medium trucks 2,5(50) and heavy trucks 7,5(150). My question, however, is what specific changes do you suggest. Iīm willing to implement them.





srndac -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/12/2008 7:15:48 PM)

@Bombur:

Essentially, you already have everything covered in your mod (which is excellent piece of work, BTW [&o])
All I really had to do was remove that pesky 1 Stack Point.
As I said - it (1 Stack Point) is more intended for Cavalry - which you already have - where it represents that crucial weakening when you have a lot of 'dead weight' which is just standing there and is of no actual use in battle, but is a vital part of your unit.

Cheers!
srndac

P.S. a small heads up: battlefield icons of capitols in your mode come up as villages. (just in case you haven't noticed... [8|])
P.P.S. why does the artillery in your mod have weight 19? [X(] any particular reason?




Bombur -> RE: On Horses and Wagons (10/13/2008 12:17:00 AM)


quote:


Essentially, you already have everything covered in your mod (which is excellent piece of work, BTW [&o])


-Thank you[:D]

quote:


All I really had to do was remove that pesky 1 Stack Point.


-Will be done in v01.6, to be released next week (and will fix a few errors too....like Long range fighters with only 6 hexes of range)

quote:


P.S. a small heads up: battlefield icons of capitols in your mode come up as villages. (just in case you haven't noticed... [8|])


-True....I will take a look. I didnīt intend to change the icons...may have made a mistake...

quote:


P.P.S. why does the artillery in your mod have weight 19? [X(] any particular reason?


-Itīs only artillery I, latter types are heavier. I looked at the weight of Art I in wikipedia (about 900kg) and multiplied it by 20 (as each unit is equal to 20 pieces). Type II artillery has a weight of 50 and artillery 3 is even heavier (280....a long Tom is a real monster...). Maybe I should have considered the weight of the crew too...maybe I will do latter




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