Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (Full Version)

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Mardonius -> Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 12:29:38 PM)

This is not really a bug so I did not post it in tech support, but it does seem a grievous oversight.

After watching several French pummelings in Toulon Harbor by an daring Nelson who was willing to run the 40 guns, I kept thinking "Wow... that is a ballsy move... It works... suprised I never saw it in the board game".

Well, I dusted off the Avalon Hill Map last night and, sure enough, Toulon had 90 games in the board game. Which is why no one ever ran it. May seem minor at first, but this oversight (and it is an oversight, as Toulon was one of the Vauban pillar forts) prevents any French presence in the Mediterranean.

Needs to be fixed ASAP.

best
Mardonius



DCWhitworth -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 2:31:28 PM)

I completely agree with this, mainly because I was the French player victimised by this.

Being pretty experienced at playing France in the original game, I dropped a fleet at Toulon pretty much without a second thought, having made sure there was an adequate garrison.

I was completely shocked when GB cheerfully ran the guns repeatedly and sent a significant proportion of the French fleet to the bottom without me being able to lift a finger.

It's actually been pretty much a game changing thing since there is now little hope of threatening GB.

Why has this been changed from 90 to 40 ? Is it an EiH thing ? What's the justification ?



Thresh -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 3:01:04 PM)

History if I remember correctly...Toulon wasn't as well protected as some of the other ports.

Todd



Mardonius -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 6:23:44 PM)

Hi Todd:

I did some brief research on French fortifications... don't have the sources handy but Toulon was one of the major French fortifications in the Vauban designed defense of France. Moreover, it was the major French naval base in the Med.

So I am certain this is an oversight.

best
Mardonius



Thresh -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 7:42:09 PM)

The port forts, at least one of them, was built before Vauban, he proposed some upgrades, but they were never implemented.  I am pretty sure the number of guns isn't the actual number, but a relative strength number.  I know one of the main ports responsibleforthe defenseof Toulon had 40 guns, perhaps thats what the number is based on?

Todd



Mardonius -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 10:29:18 PM)

Hi Todd:

You are correct the guns are based on a ratio system, not the actual count.

Vauban did fortfy Toulon. From Wikipedia:

"Beginning in 1678, Vauban constructed an elaborate system of fortifications around Toulon." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulon#Vauban.27s_Fortifications

Froim Vauban's Bio on Answers.com:
"In addition, he built fortified naval bases at Dunkirk, Brest, Le Havre, Rochefort, and Toulon to support Colbert's plans for the creation of a powerful navy."
Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/vauban

Here is a map from the 1793 Siege that shows some of the gun positions. Very formidable, with inner and outer harbors:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24980/24980-h/images/image04.jpg

For a detailed description of the port and fortifications, see the whole artcile (Chapter VII)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24980/24980-h/24980-h.htm


Here is a good article from Britanica that talks about Colbert's (Naval Minister to Louis XIV) improvements of Toulon: "He refurbished the hospitals in each of the major ports; rebuilt the arsenals at Toulon "

http://concise.britannica.com/dday/print?articleId=110436&fullArticle=true&tocId=40404


Here is a direct reference to a port fort rebuilt by Vauban: " The Rade of Toulon is one of the best natural anchorages on the Mediterranean, and the largest rade in Europe. A naval arsenal and shipyard was built in 1599, and small sheltered harbor, the Veille Darse, was built in 1604-1610 to protect ships from the wind and sea. The shipyard was greatly enlarged by Cardinal Richelieu, who wished to make France into a Mediterranean naval power. Further additions were made by Jean-Baptiste Colbert and Vauban.

..... Fort Saint Louis, which was reconstructed by Vauban" see http://www.smso.net/Toulon

Ulimately, here is the best reference: Michel Vergé-Franceschi, Toulon - Port Royal (1481-1789. Tallandier: Paris, 2002.) But I don't have it and it is in French...

So Please Matrix, upgrade the guns to what it was in EiA... They should not have dropped.

Most important of all, it makes for a better game.

best

Mardonius



borner -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 10:35:19 PM)

if the EiA map says 90 guns, then it should have 90 guns.



DCWhitworth -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 10:44:43 PM)

Wow - excellent research.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius


Most important of all, it makes for a better game.

best

Mardonius



I think that's the most important point. France needs a secure naval base in the Med.



La Provence -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/8/2008 11:42:42 PM)

I confirm that Toulon had (and still have !) very good fortifications.

Some forts with guns able to block the port access.

I was on the navy there [;)] and I had organized the bicentenary of these events.
(Toulon siege and Egypt departure)

Don't forget that the british fleet in 1793 entered the port only because the counter-revolutionary men open it to them !



Mardonius -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/9/2008 12:25:16 AM)

Mssr Provence: Counter Revolutionary?
Perhaps as some might say, Royalists.

[:)] Best,
Mardonius


quote:

ORIGINAL: La Provence

I confirm that Toulon had (and still have !) very good fortifications.

Some forts with guns able to block the port access.

I was on the navy there [;)] and I had organized the bicentenary of these events.
(Toulon siege and Egypt departure)

Don't forget that the british fleet in 1793 entered the port only because the counter-revolutionary men open it to them !





delatbabel -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/9/2008 3:29:27 AM)

The change is as per the EiH map.  I have no idea why the EiH designers changed the map in this way but you could argue that it is incorrect.  Note (with all due respect to La Provence) that although Toulon is quite a well protected port, it is quite a simple port to blockade because like most Mediterranean ports it has minimal tides and almost no tidal current, and the Gulf of Lyon in general is relatively calm with few impediments to a stationary fleet.  In 1798 the French fleet got out into the Mediterranean because Nelson let them -- he stood his blockade off some distance to entice them out into the Mediterranean.  The fact that they did get away without getting caught may indicate a tactical error of judgement on Nelson's part but one could argue that the end result at Aboukir Bay vindicated Nelson's decision.

In any case Nelson was in no hurry to go into Toulon after the French fleet in 1798 which says to me that there was a sizeable presence of guns there, however remember that Nelson's Mediterranean fleet was only about 20 or so ships of the line at the time, probably not enough to risk running even a 40 gun port.

Hopefully this is something that can be fixed in the scenario editor.




NeverMan -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/9/2008 3:29:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

if the EiA map says 90 guns, then it should have 90 guns.


I agree 100%. If EiA said it had 90 guns and this is indeed EiA (since we are all pretending it is) then it should have 90 guns.

I also agree with the others about France needing a strong southern naval port to protect some fleets down south, simply for game balance.



yammahoper -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/9/2008 4:03:22 AM)

I capture Genoa. The port there has 80 guns.




DCWhitworth -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/9/2008 10:43:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

I capture Genoa. The port there has 80 guns.




Wrong side of the Alps, too close to Austria and by the time you've captured it GB has your fleet blockaded in other ports so you can move anything there.



DCWhitworth -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/9/2008 10:52:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

The change is as per the EiH map.  I have no idea why the EiH designers changed the map in this way but you could argue that it is incorrect.  Note (with all due respect to La Provence) that although Toulon is quite a well protected port, it is quite a simple port to blockade because like most Mediterranean ports it has minimal tides and almost no tidal current, and the Gulf of Lyon in general is relatively calm with few impediments to a stationary fleet.  In 1798 the French fleet got out into the Mediterranean because Nelson let them -- he stood his blockade off some distance to entice them out into the Mediterranean.  The fact that they did get away without getting caught may indicate a tactical error of judgement on Nelson's part but one could argue that the end result at Aboukir Bay vindicated Nelson's decision.

In any case Nelson was in no hurry to go into Toulon after the French fleet in 1798 which says to me that there was a sizeable presence of guns there, however remember that Nelson's Mediterranean fleet was only about 20 or so ships of the line at the time, probably not enough to risk running even a 40 gun port.

Hopefully this is something that can be fixed in the scenario editor.



Well port defences have no effect on how hard the port is to blockade.

I hope it can be fixed in the scenario editor, but it's to late for me. I've discovered that the Winter Movement option, weak Toulon and the 'deviation' where blockading fleets move immediately into a port make for a combination that hugely increases Great Britain's power.

Add to that the greatly increased sea lift capacity caused by the revised fleet system and there's a lot of trouble. In the boardgame GB was limited by the number of fleet counters they had, not an issue now.

Oh and before I forget there's the fact you can land troops from a fleet and then immediately use it for naval supply. So you don't need a spare fleet.

They are all fairly small issues but they all add up to a pretty big one. In my opinion the ability to launch invasions in EiA was too great, in EiANW it is even worse.



Mardonius -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/9/2008 2:13:18 PM)

Hello Del:

Your assertation that Nelson intended to let the French slip out of Toulon in 1798 is incorrect. He missed them by mistake with his screening frigates taking quite abit of strom damage. If you want source material and references, I am happy to oblige.

best
Mardonius

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

In 1798 the French fleet got out into the Mediterranean because Nelson let them -- he stood his blockade off some distance to entice them out into the Mediterranean.  The fact that they did get away without getting caught may indicate a tactical error of judgement on Nelson's part but one could argue that the end result at Aboukir Bay vindicated Nelson's decision.







La Provence -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/10/2008 10:55:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel
  Note (with all due respect to La Provence) that although Toulon is quite a well protected port, it is quite a simple port to blockade ...

I agree !
Toulon had a big port defense AND it'was also easy to block because its entry is quite thin. So a fleet can made easily a blockade on it.

quote:

  In 1798 the French fleet got out into the Mediterranean because Nelson let them -- he stood his blockade off some distance to entice them out into the Mediterranean.  The fact that they did get away without getting caught may indicate a tactical error of judgement on Nelson's


[:-] Totaly wrong.
Mardonius is right [;)]

And the following Nelson campaign in Mediteranean sea, looking for the french fleet, was not the best of his life [8|] !




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Toulon Harbor should have 90 Guns (11/11/2008 12:28:33 PM)

I will let the classic map address this.



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