Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (Full Version)

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Ashtar -> Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/12/2008 4:13:20 PM)

I just realized that in EIANW you can get extra political points for some STRANGE reasons:

+1 pp for declaring a free state out of a conquered minor (no trace in official EIA rule)
quote:

4.8 THE FREE STATE DECLARATION STEP: Major powers can declare that any of their conquered minor countries that can have corps are now minor free states. Replace the conquered control flag with a free state control flag in that country. Its fleet if any, is set up at its current strength and its corps, fleets, land, and naval factors may be purchased begining in the next Economic Phase (see 8.2 and 8.5). Once a major power has declared a minor country to be a free state, it may not be later "undeclared" (ie., switched back to being a conquered minor country by that major power).

and
+2 pps for returning a captured leader (again non-existing rules)
quote:

10.6.3 LEADER CAPTURE: When all factors on a side or in a pinning force with which a leader is present are eliminated by combat that leader is captured by any major power on the opposing side of the owning player's choice. If a leader becomes unstacked through losses incurred during besieged supply, the leader is captured by the besieging major power of the owning player's choice. Captured leaders must be returned as an effect of peace (see 4.4.6.1) and may be returned earlier at the option of the capturing player, the leader being placed on the board in any later appropriate Reinforcement Steps.


Why on earth these rules has been changed and these extra sources of pps have been added?



Soapy Frog -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/12/2008 4:51:24 PM)

What the heck is this about? Marshall? What's going on with this?



NeverMan -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/12/2008 5:01:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashtar

I just realized that in EIANW you can get extra political points for some STRANGE reasons:

+1 pp for declaring a free state out of a conquered minor (no trace in official EIA rule)
quote:

4.8 THE FREE STATE DECLARATION STEP: Major powers can declare that any of their conquered minor countries that can have corps are now minor free states. Replace the conquered control flag with a free state control flag in that country. Its fleet if any, is set up at its current strength and its corps, fleets, land, and naval factors may be purchased begining in the next Economic Phase (see 8.2 and 8.5). Once a major power has declared a minor country to be a free state, it may not be later "undeclared" (ie., switched back to being a conquered minor country by that major power).

and
+2 pps for returning a captured leader (again non-existing rules)
quote:

10.6.3 LEADER CAPTURE: When all factors on a side or in a pinning force with which a leader is present are eliminated by combat that leader is captured by any major power on the opposing side of the owning player's choice. If a leader becomes unstacked through losses incurred during besieged supply, the leader is captured by the besieging major power of the owning player's choice. Captured leaders must be returned as an effect of peace (see 4.4.6.1) and may be returned earlier at the option of the capturing player, the leader being placed on the board in any later appropriate Reinforcement Steps.


Why on earth these rules has been changed and these extra sources of pps have been added?


My first guess would be that the PPs were added somewhere in EiH, so you might want to go and comb through those rules to see.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/12/2008 7:45:42 PM)

The leader release pp was a change that we added a little over a year ago and I do not remember the precedent (optioanl rule, etc.). The abstraction was for a nation showing a gentlemen's approach to captured leaders, officers, etc.

The freestate issue looks to be a bug???? I will look into this...



Thresh -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/13/2008 4:33:16 AM)

I am pretty sure the PP for Free State is an EiH thing, you used to get a PP by making a minor state a Client State, which in EiH meant Free State.  It does make some sense IMO. 

Todd




Ashtar -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/13/2008 9:57:53 AM)

quote:

The leader release pp was a change that we added a little over a year ago and I do not remember the precedent (optioanl rule, etc.). The abstraction was for a nation showing a gentlemen's approach to captured leaders, officers, etc.


The problem is that it can be easily exploited. and 2pp are a LOT.
Some leaders are important (Nappy, Wellington, Nelson, Blucher...) but most are crap.
Force Austria to a royal marriage and you get one point, break an alliance and you lose two, release Eugene and you gain two? That is crazy!
In my game I indeed captured Eugene and it was clear that for 2pp it was by far convenient to release him rather then keeping him in the London tower.

quote:

I am pretty sure the PP for Free State is an EiH thing, you used to get a PP by making a minor state a Client State, which in EiH meant Free State. It does make some sense IMO.

I do not see why it should make sense. In EIA conquering a minor was a 0 sum business: -1 to declare war, + 1 to capture it. Now there are some states (the one with corps) which can give you a +1 pp as a total for your conquest effort(declare war, capture it and then make it free when your army is full). This extra source of pp clearly unbalance the game...

I just wish people would be more careful before tampering with base game mechanics...



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/13/2008 12:24:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

I am pretty sure the PP for Free State is an EiH thing, you used to get a PP by making a minor state a Client State, which in EiH meant Free State.  It does make some sense IMO. 

Todd




Actually, I do not see this in EiH. It looks to me that I am giving a pp much like someone gaining control as a sponsor. I will log this and fix her up...



Thresh -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/13/2008 5:30:34 PM)

I remember it from EiH, which is why I never logged it...

:-)



Mardonius -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/13/2008 6:58:23 PM)

The +2 PP for Leader returns is out of whack. That is more than a reward for an international alliance.

I scanned through EiH v 5.0 pretty thoroughly and could find no reference to the PP for free states. That said, I have playtested it pretty extensively and it works just fine so if you do take it out, I'd at least make it an option.

Ashtar is correct that we have to maintain some balance in PPs, but if every body has relatively equal access to a PP metric, then the balance is maintained.

Besides, whenever one fellow gets ahead there is more than enough power in the remaining 6 to stomp him, GB at sea perhaps excepted.



Grognot -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/14/2008 5:25:14 AM)

+2 PP for releasing, say, Eugene, Alexander or Mack might be a bit odd, but I'm not sure how much that'd matter in MP games.  The AI likes its A-levels more than it generally should.

I could see keeping it on a tiered level -- perhaps +2 / 1 / 0 for releasing A, B, C for instance.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/14/2008 12:48:26 PM)

I might adjust this later based on seniority but this will be out a ways...



Mardonius -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/14/2008 1:23:49 PM)

I would be careful with seniority basing. There are quite a few A and B leaders that are of limited (Mack included) or no use.

Given that one gets only 2 PP for a royal marriage and 1 PP for an international alliance, I would either toss this PP bonus or limit it to only for royal/imperial leaders.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/14/2008 1:39:10 PM)

The seniority is definitely not skill based but I think it was a good indicator of his prestige element. I think releasing Alexander back to Russia is worth some pp (Qty certainly debatable).

Moral to the story is not to let your leaders get captured.




Thresh -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/14/2008 7:21:05 PM)

Theres no such thing as a free state in EiH.  Theres Client State,which is the same thing, and you used to get a PP for creating one.

Todd



delatbabel -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/15/2008 12:19:35 AM)

I don't have a problem with +1 for creating a free/client state, however it is not currently -1 PP to turn a free state back to conquered.  So players can go and gain PPs forever by making conquered states into free states and vice-versa.




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/17/2008 1:28:01 PM)

This is the reason I think I need to eliminate the 1pp for creation. It all needs to be a zero sum game on thje minor stuff.



Jimmer -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/17/2008 3:55:50 PM)

Well, "sort of" zero-sum. I get a free political point out of minors about 40% of the time, simply by intelligent use of their factors/corps. Another 30%, the other player gets a PP. Also, I frequently get to kill some of his troops. Maximizing troop loss is always a noble goal.



Jimmer -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/17/2008 3:56:16 PM)

But, I do agree with getting rid of the PP.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders (11/17/2008 5:31:18 PM)

Understood!



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