How do things get turned upside down (Full Version)

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spruce -> How do things get turned upside down (11/16/2008 4:39:49 PM)

In my current Union game I'm facing a confederacy with more infantry units then me. I had a month were 170.000 confederate soldiers saw action (2 battles in Tenessee, and one battle in North Carolina).

Another issue is the fact that the confeceracy builds ironclads that are undestructable. I come with a fleet of 12 ships - 2 ironclads - about 5 cruisers and 5 gunboats. All of my ships get sliced - I can only hurt the confederate gunboats - but their ironclad has a chance to hit of 1%. They have 2 stars and are indestructable.

Off course I didn't make it until the election - why is the confederacy having more troops then me (over 200 units) - I did 2 or 3 drafts - as much as needed I presume - and they also have a better navy then me ? Why ?



sven6345789 -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/16/2008 8:38:14 PM)

did you build ironclads from the start?
regarding confed ironclads, if you build ironclads whereever you can as the south, there is no problem of producing 5 or 6 in half a year
regarding troop numbers, i really do not know. what difficulty level where you playing?
as the north, i draft at least onve a year. i even consider doing it twice in 1862 to get as much manpower as possible..



spruce -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/16/2008 11:24:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

did you build ironclads from the start?
regarding confed ironclads, if you build ironclads whereever you can as the south, there is no problem of producing 5 or 6 in half a year
regarding troop numbers, i really do not know. what difficulty level where you playing?
as the north, i draft at least onve a year. i even consider doing it twice in 1862 to get as much manpower as possible..


I build also ironclads - but theirs are cracks (two stars at the least) and their leader must be from Mars. My chance of hitting is 1 like I said.

Second question about Union drafts - with drafts you can never win the game - how can you get to 1000 points in 1864? It's so hard to win a battle against the rebels !

I know I'm a newbee at this game - but honestly the normal setting could have been more easy. How on earth do you guys win this game !



GShock -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/17/2008 9:12:13 AM)

Ironclads are not immune from damage or destruction. The most important think to remember is that you need good leaders to command them.



paullus99 -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/17/2008 10:17:22 AM)

Leaders are a must - especially since the AI will almost always have them. Also, if you're playing with CSC on, you've really got to keep track of your open slots - as once again, you'll get your clock cleaned by a fully loaded AI command structure.

This game is deep - it will take you a while to figure things out (like the continual need for scouting). Lots of resources here, so definitely read up.



Treefrog -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/17/2008 7:30:13 PM)

CSA ironclads built on the coast are split up when they arrive. The trick is to defeat them in detail. Problem is, your ironclads have to move to get on station whereas the CSA ironclads arrive at the port ready to break out.

There is a great value in identifying ports that can build ironclads, then capturing them over the winter of '61-'62 with amphibious invasions. Reaction forces are slower in the winter. You may be able to capture two (when you capture the first his reaction force will move up to retake the port by which time you attacking another port. As I recall the coastal seaports capable of producing ironclads are Norfolk, New Bern, Wilmington (2), Charleston, Savannah and Mobile. Even if you abandon the port, the ironclads are destroyed and the CSA must start over; those ironclads will arrive after yours are own station. While you're there, destroy the factories, railroad and resources too.

Any unit with two battle starts is pretty tough. Prevent that. As in land combat, commit your forces only when they have good leadership, are in supply, and with overwhelming force. Presumably you will damage or destroy some of his (as he does to some of yours) but you'll emerge with some battle star units too. His repairs will typically occur at a port which is building something else, thus jamming his production schedule.



spruce -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/17/2008 9:09:53 PM)

Everybody thanks for their help,

however the point still is that a confederate 2 star Ironclad commanded by a good leader is nowhere from the 20'th century Bismarck or Yamato or Iowa class battleships.

In my game I send a big fleet of cruisers and ironclads and gunboats to sink the confederate ironclad and all my odds are max. 1% - sorry that's way out of touch. At least some of my cruisers and for sure ironclads should have a decent chance at sinking their ironclad.



Joel Billings -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/17/2008 9:57:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spruce

Everybody thanks for their help,

however the point still is that a confederate 2 star Ironclad commanded by a good leader is nowhere from the 20'th century Bismarck or Yamato or Iowa class battleships.

In my game I send a big fleet of cruisers and ironclads and gunboats to sink the confederate ironclad and all my odds are max. 1% - sorry that's way out of touch. At least some of my cruisers and for sure ironclads should have a decent chance at sinking their ironclad.


The basic hit chances:

Ironclad firing at Ironclad - 28.1%
Ironclad firing at 2 star Ironclad - 14.6%
Ironclad with Naval leader skill 2 firing at 2 star Ironclad with 4 skill leader - 10.6%

Cruiser firing at Ironclad - 5.9%
Cruiser firing at 2 star Ironclad - 1.6%
Cruiser with Naval leader skill 2 firing at 2 star Ironclad with 4 skill leader - 1.1%

If you are playing with sub commanders, then you have two leaders to look at. If you are missing a sub commander for example while the other player has a 3 skill sub commander, then that is similar in effect to fighting against a 2 star Ironclad.



paullus99 -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/17/2008 10:40:22 PM)

Can't stress this enough - LEADERS, LEADERS, LEADERS!!!

I was getting killed at sea, until I realized I needed just as many leaders as my land forces did (and even more once I turned the CSC option on. It was like I was playing an entirely new game - turns that used to take 20 - 30 mins were now taking over an hour, because I need to rearrange Corps structures, get replacements for dead & wounded leaders, etc).

You'll get the hang of it. I just downloaded 1.3, so I'm sure I'll have a whole new raft of things to figure out. This game is definitely one of the best I've ever played.



silber -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/18/2008 5:19:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spruce

Second question about Union drafts - with drafts you can never win the game - how can you get to 1000 points in 1864? It's so hard to win a battle against the rebels !

I know I'm a newbee at this game - but honestly the normal setting could have been more easy. How on earth do you guys win this game !


You need to draft three times. On turn 1, and then in 1862 twice. If you only draft once, you want to make sure that it is in one of the months (July-September, I think) with the greatest production. You will take the PP hit, but you can get them back by capturing territory. If at all possible, keep your militia in training centers under generals with good infantry training ratings, and only fill up half the slots for each general. (Stack them with your TC as well.) When you get enough trained infantry to fill out a command, attach them to a good general. Make sure that you don't give artillery to any general with an infantry rating of 3 or more and an artillery rating of only 1, it will slow him down.



Erik Rutins -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/18/2008 5:28:08 PM)

Spruce,

Are you still playing with CSCs on? If so, remember that you need them for your naval squadrons too.



GShock -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/18/2008 7:42:00 PM)

About the draft, you can draft as many times as you want...the more the better actually because they reduce the cost of pop for MIL recruitment. The only limits you have come with 62 EP and 64 Election.

If you can keep taking regions and winning major and strategic battles, the investment will cash in so the more you draft the more you need to attack. 



spruce -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/18/2008 8:10:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Spruce,

Are you still playing with CSCs on? If so, remember that you need them for your naval squadrons too.


That depends on the leader - if I send Faragut - I can add sub commanders, if I send many small flottilla - I can't attach the sub commanders as the unit leader has not enough command points.

Morale of the story - if all of my ships get a 1% chance at hitting their crack ironclads with crack leader - that means the Union must build 200 ironclads (statistically) to defeat the 2 Confederate ironclads I'm having troubles with that. That means about 40-50 years of build time. Hm, [8|]

I agree that a gun boat could be at 1% odds - but an ironclad or cruiser should be at 1% - perhaps could be argued to have min. 5% odds - but nothing less. That means 20 cruisers or ironclads can still sink one enemy ironclad. Seems good to me.

To be honest, the confederate AI did build another ueber stack in New Orleans and Missisippi. Now I have 2 of those terror groups - I stopped that game !



Treefrog -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/19/2008 12:15:45 AM)

Spruce, mein lieben buddy,

You may only have a 1% chance per round of battle per Union; ship, but with 5 or 6 movement points and if your first attack fails, you can just keep moving into the region and attacking, maybe as much as 4 or 5 times per turn, meaning each turn you'll have a 4% or 5% chance of getting a hit per attacking vessel.

Just go after them reb boats like a hog bitin' sow.



Joel Billings -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/19/2008 12:58:03 AM)

First, I doubt your Ironclad only has a 1% chance to hit the enemy unless you have no leader or had terrible luck in your leader rolls. However, in the ocean and coastal areas, not all ships participate in combat. In those areas, you may be engaging with cruisers and gunboats only (see second paragraph in section 10.2.1 for details on how this works). This system makes it hard in ocean and coastal areas to take full advantage of numbers in any one engagement. This does not apply in rivers though.



Pford -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/19/2008 10:44:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99
You'll get the hang of it. I just downloaded 1.3, so I'm sure I'll have a whole new raft of things to figure out. This game is definitely one of the best I've ever played.


No doubt about it, GG made a brilliant game- graphically appealing, convincing historicity and atmospheric. Committing your army to battle can be an hair-raising decision often leading to shocking, though usually plausible, outcomes. This one makes you feel in the gut more than most other wargames, IMO.

But WBTS is also incredibly intricate. It can be unforgiving. Some intrepid soul might consider putting together a comprehensive guide to advanced play. Or a compendium of useful forum posts.





Doc o War -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/20/2008 12:26:11 AM)

Spruce- I dont know why your Union ships arent hitting- I find more often than not over repeated  battles the Confed ironclads get damaged and sunk with pretty common repeatedness. Against Human players



spruce -> RE: How do things get turned upside down (11/20/2008 8:50:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc o War

Spruce- I dont know why your Union ships arent hitting- I find more often than not over repeated  battles the Confed ironclads get damaged and sunk with pretty common repeatedness. Against Human players


After restarting the game I found out that things are better. At a certain moment I had a confederate ironclad with 2 stars tied down in a stream. After sorties towards my fleet I found out that my gunboats again are at 1% hit chance - but cruisers are doing better now with roughly 5% hit chance and my own ironclads at 25-30%.

I think it's a combination of a crack Confederate leader (with 7 command points) that is attached another crack Confederate leader, commanding a 2 star ironclad.

In the game where I saw the issue, the ironclads were always "doubled" making them extremely hard to sink - often they sink half of my blockade fleet at a port in a single battle sequence.



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