b4 the OOB's be writ' in Stone (Full Version)

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hammerhead -> b4 the OOB's be writ' in Stone (10/11/2000 9:33:00 AM)

My apologies but... This is my first look at the spw@w oob editor. I have some concerns about the current OOB's for US formations....about the only group I really know anything about. I have understood (or misunderstood) that you fellas will soon be putting your standard waw oob's in 'stone'. If this is so I would strongly recommend that whoever is in charge of the Yanks take a closer look at the platoon makeup,( # of sq per plt ) plt weapons, HT carry capacities...and lots more, before it is TOO LAAAAAATE! {:<(o) Your MR.GRASSE has a pretty good ( flawless as far as I can tell) US T/O&E settup in the game...and there are sources like "US Army HNDBK '39-'45" by G. Forty and ""US ARmy Order of Battle in WWII" by s.L. Stanton, which can provide good guidance. I am not sure I am at all happy with the current quality of the US OOB-T/O&E set up in the game. I realize that the gaming world has long been in love with the neeto Nazi units...but for some of us ....we would like to give the Yanks an even chance for more attention to detail! Hope this is not taken wrong...I just don't want to have to crawl into the innards of each scenario I want to do to get a more (for me) accurate OOB-T/O&E set up. As I do not have the time to follow what goes on with these games and their development to the depth that I porbably should please forgive my over-step. If I am mistaken, and you are not on the road to solidifying the OOB-T/O&E's then just consider this post to be....a little mistake ...although a well meaning one. ------------------ "Mediocrity carries its own price." It is my pleasure to communicate with you. Greg - "Hammerhead"



Arralen -> (10/11/2000 1:31:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by hammerhead: My apologies but... This is my first look at the spw@w oob editor. I have some concerns about the current OOB's for US formations....about the only group I really know anything about. I have understood (or misunderstood) that you fellas will soon be putting your standard waw oob's in 'stone'. Your MR.GRASSE has a pretty good ( flawless as far as I can tell) US T/O&E settup in the game... I am not sure I am at all happy with the current quality of the US OOB-T/O&E set up in the game.
So neither am I !! And the latest german OOB is just a piece of crap .. the formation in it derive from the unit classes only, but have nothing to do with reality. Bad thing is - Paul said the formations' names, types etc. are "set", but it's all rubbish IMO, so there's a big fight ahead [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] But one thing is shure - if my suggestions do not make it into the "official OOB" at all, than I'll post my version on a website for everyone to download [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Here's my (first) suggestion I made to other folks from the OOB team .. there is one known error in it - the distributed heavy weapons plt. .. already noticed that. Maybe this would suit your taste more? > Following Scott's TOE I would the US Rifle Comp.(F#1076) the look > something like this : > > (Had to change > "Rifle Co #1076" > "Weapons Plt #1075" => change to AT gun sqd > "Rifle Plt #1073" => added U#110 M2 Mortar > "Rifle Sqd #135, .."=> renamed "Heavy .." ) > > Unit 1: U#135 US HvyRifle Sqd > Unit 2: U#112 M1 81mm Mortar > Unit 3: F#1075 AT Gun Sqd > (U#94 37mm AT Gun, U#64 Dodge) > Unit 4: F#1113 MMG Sec > Unit 5: F#1114 HMG Sec > Unit 6: F#1073 Rifle Plt > Unit 7: F#1073 Rifle Plt > Unit 8: F#1073 Rifle Plt > Unit 9: F#1074 Inf Recon > > (Unit10: F#1112 Inf AT Sec) .. I'm not shure about this; > on one hand, the bazookas should be with the "regular units", on the > other hand there are some men from HQ etc. "missing", and bazookas as > well ...) Arralen [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited October 11, 2000).]



Voriax -> (10/11/2000 6:30:00 PM)

I might add a bit. We can do a lot of changes but we cannot delete existing formations. This means (unless i'm mistaken again) that the formation must stay in it's slot but the name and contents can be changed. Oh Arralen, I still disagree with your example. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] And if you do make own oob's that's neat. But remind people that their scenarios/campaigns are likely to suffer hideously if 'unofficial' oob is used [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Voriax ------------------ OOB-Wan Kenobi



Wild Bill -> (10/11/2000 8:26:00 PM)

OOB work is hard, and very technical. I appreciate the work the SPWAW OOB team is doing to try to make the game more historically accurate. It seems everyone has his own ideas on correct OOBs. Some of these suggestions are very good, but eventually someone will have to cast the final vote, make the final choices. And like so many things in life, it will not please everyone. That is why the OOB editor is in the game. As Voriax pointed out, however, editing the OOB is fraught with problems and a personally revised OOB can be a disaster. Sweeping changes naturally affect every scenario and campaign that have already been done. You've seen that in the Finnish scenarios and the Filipino Trail 7 scenario in the game. Moving, deleting and changing too much will junk hundreds of scenarios and campaigns and we don't want that! I've dabbled at it trying to add in the ammo canisters, the DD, and the LST. That was enough OOBs for me [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] So my helmet is off to Voriax and the team for what they are trying to do. Thank you very much! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Don Doom -> (10/11/2000 11:32:00 PM)

I would like to add my two cents [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] sdkfz 251/22 plt should be six not four. 251/22 shows up in December 44 not January 44. This is per Doyle Chamberlain Jentz book Encyclopedia of German tanks of wwII. Not trying to start a fight. OK am looking for my other books including the german toe/oob book I have. Don PS never can get these smilles right. Can anyone tell me what will read .shp files? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img]



Voriax -> (10/12/2000 1:21:00 AM)

Grumble.... [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] (rant on) DonDoom..there is this nice '4.1 OOB bugs here' thread...those are the oob's you have even if you have 4.2 or 4.3b. It's easier for me/other oob team members to list & maybe even fix the bugs if they are easily found from one place... (rant off) (more cola...better) As for shp files, there exists Fred Chlanda's Shpedit program. with it you can read those files and convert to bmp for editing, and then convert back to shp. You can get it from: http://freds.webprovider.com/index.htm Voriax ps. thanks for pointing out those two. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ------------------ OOB-Wan Kenobi [This message has been edited by Voriax (edited October 11, 2000).]



hammerhead -> (10/12/2000 12:05:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: I might add a bit. We can do a lot of changes but we cannot delete existing formations. This means (unless i'm mistaken again) that the formation must stay in it's slot but the name and contents can be changed. Oh Arralen, I still disagree with your example. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] And if you do make own oob's that's neat. But remind people that their scenarios/campaigns are likely to suffer hideously if 'unofficial' oob is used [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Voriax
Gee, this sounds like a real ominous kind of a threat! I thought you guys were trying to get an accurate game in place!???? You will not succeed if it turns into a pxxxing contest. Your OOB's for the US are filled with lots of errors. You can either fix them....or just be happy that you have the power to dictate its contents. It will get you a game with your name on it, and in your control..but it may also get you a game which people who know something about the subject will consider a lost cause! I thought you were lovers of the game..not a name!? ------------------ "Mediocrity carries its own price." It is my pleasure to communicate with you. Greg - "Hammerhead"



Arralen -> (10/12/2000 6:06:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by hammerhead: I thought you guys were trying to get an accurate game in place!???? Your OOB's for the US are filled with lots of errors. You can either fix them....or just be happy that you have the power to dictate
???????? Looks like you got something very wrong here ... 1) what do you say about my suggestion concerning the US Rifle Co ? (and remember, this is only a "beta" which has errors. Gave it only so you can get the general picture) 2) If I and Voriax have a little dispute about this that doesn't mean we cannot agree at all. 3) No one dictates anything... - the OOBeditor comes with the game, so you are free to modify whatever you like - if I think the "official OOBs" wouldn't be good enough, I'm free to make my own and put them on a website for download - and so are you - it is impossible to make the OOBs "absolutly accurate" .. at first no one knows (or agrees) what this would be, second it's impossible for technical reasons. Changing the OOBs too much will spoil all existing scenarios/campiagns as well as asking for another modification of the *.exe, so that the AI "knows" formations again - and that wouldn't happen. Bottom line is : We are gonna have a kind of compromise (sp?) - we'll try our best to make OOBs that let either the AI and the players buy forces that appear on the battlefield roughly as those in reality had .. not more, not less. Arralen [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited October 12, 2000).]



hammerhead -> (10/15/2000 12:39:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Arralen: So neither am I !! And the latest german OOB is just a piece of crap .. the formation in it derive from the unit classes only, but have nothing to do with reality. Bad thing is - Paul said the formations' names, types etc. are "set", but it's all rubbish IMO, so there's a big fight ahead [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] But one thing is shure - if my suggestions do not make it into the "official OOB" at all, than I'll post my version on a website for everyone to download [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Here's my (first) suggestion I made to other folks from the OOB team .. there is one known error in it - the distributed heavy weapons plt. .. already noticed that. Maybe this would suit your taste more? > Following Scott's TOE I would the US Rifle Comp.(F#1076) the look > something like this : > > (Had to change > "Rifle Co #1076" > "Weapons Plt #1075" => change to AT gun sqd > "Rifle Plt #1073" => added U#110 M2 Mortar > "Rifle Sqd #135, .."=> renamed "Heavy .." ) > > Unit 1: U#135 US HvyRifle Sqd > Unit 2: U#112 M1 81mm Mortar > Unit 3: F#1075 AT Gun Sqd > (U#94 37mm AT Gun, U#64 Dodge) > Unit 4: F#1113 MMG Sec > Unit 5: F#1114 HMG Sec > Unit 6: F#1073 Rifle Plt > Unit 7: F#1073 Rifle Plt > Unit 8: F#1073 Rifle Plt > Unit 9: F#1074 Inf Recon > > (Unit10: F#1112 Inf AT Sec) .. I'm not shure about this; > on one hand, the bazookas should be with the "regular units", on the > other hand there are some men from HQ etc. "missing", and bazookas as > well ...) Arralen [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited October 11, 2000).]
Arralen: I must have missed above req. for assessment. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] As it is VERY LATE [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] I will check your solution for what I think is a mid '44 US Inf/rfl coy...Yes? I need to dig out my Shelby Stanton and my G. Forty HNDBK as well as look at some other stuff from US Army in WW2 series before I can give you a reply which your work deserves. But as I said ...it is very late! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] Will reply soon. OKEE DOKEE? ------------------ "Mediocrity carries its own price." It is my pleasure to communicate with you. Greg - "Hammerhead"



Voriax -> (10/15/2000 1:01:00 PM)

Arralen is right, we tend to disagree sometimes but that will not prevent the actual fixing of the oob's. And I did have those smilies in the post..that already should tell something. Btw, Arralen will be the person mainly responsible for the German oob..US oob's are still without any dedicated 'fixer'. Also if my task in this project is unclear, well I do not do that much of the editing myself but I try to keep all these suggestions in line, check for their usefulness and chances of actually working. And in near future I shall blow the whistle and ignore all oob unit/stat changes until all the formations work and all units are buyable. So the accuracy of the future oob's largely depends of the number of knowledgeable and enthusiastic people that will take an oob or two and fix them. If such persons are not found to an oob it'll stay as it is except for possible fixes in the formations. Also when my slav...errr...enthusiastic volunteers have cooked up an oob set that pleases ME [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I still have to present it to Paul and explain why the oob's are as they are. Voriax ------------------ OOB-Wan Kenobi



Don Doom -> (10/16/2000 4:59:00 AM)

Mr Voriax, by the way I still use v4.0 until the 4.3 is done. Ok. I posted a question to [Mr Arrlaen?] about the panzer jager list I had made. Don



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