Just get it right.

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Sgt.Fury25 -> Just get it right. (11/24/2008 7:07:54 PM)
Hello,after learning the hard way about not buying a game that is not finished,ex.cnaw,ww2rtv etc.I am hopefully counting on this game to meet the standards that I was hoping for with the ones mentioned.With all the attention that this game is getting from the developers I think this will be good game.So even if you have to keep postponing the release of it thats cool.A finished product is all we ask for.Thanks to all![&o]

Michael the Pole -> RE: Just get it right. (11/24/2008 11:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ronson Hello,after learning the hard way about not buying a game that is not finished,ex.cnaw,ww2rtv etc.I am hopefully counting on this game to meet the standards that I was hoping for with the ones mentioned.With all the attention that this game is getting from the developers I think this will be good game.So even if you have to keep postponing the release of it thats cool.A finished product is all we ask for.Thanks to all![&o] AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! Several of us have been strugling with the designers of WWII/RTV over the problem of the invulnerability of naval units to all forms of air attack. I was recently informed by a Matrix staff member that it wasnt necessary to handle this problem because as a Grand Strategic game aledgedly simulating the entire WWII in Europe, it wasnt necessary to have the game simulate the following campaigns: Norway, Battle of Britan, Battle of the Atlantic, Battle for Malta and control of the Central Med, etc, etc.

brian brian -> RE: Just get it right. (11/24/2008 11:33:16 PM)
I saw this mentioned in the 'complexity' thread ... what is "RTV"?

Michael the Pole -> RE: Just get it right. (11/25/2008 12:39:10 AM)
WWII/Road to Victory -- a hideous turkey and as close to consumer fraud as any game I've ever seen since Outpost [sm=00000106.gif].

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Just get it right. (11/25/2008 1:39:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole quote: ORIGINAL: Ronson Hello,after learning the hard way about not buying a game that is not finished,ex.cnaw,ww2rtv etc.I am hopefully counting on this game to meet the standards that I was hoping for with the ones mentioned.With all the attention that this game is getting from the developers I think this will be good game.So even if you have to keep postponing the release of it thats cool.A finished product is all we ask for.Thanks to all![&o] AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! Several of us have been strugling with the designers of WWII/RTV over the problem of the invulnerability of naval units to all forms of air attack. I was recently informed by a Matrix staff member that it wasnt necessary to handle this problem because as a Grand Strategic game aledgedly simulating the entire WWII in Europe, it wasnt necessary to have the game simulate the following campaigns: Norway, Battle of Britan, Battle of the Atlantic, Battle for Malta and control of the Central Med, etc, etc. I am not worrying about the design elements of MWIF since WIF has undergone 20+ years of heavy playing experience worldwide. That is not to say that there aren't design weaknesses or points/rules of serious contention within the player community. But those are outside the scope of MWIF and have been continuously addressed (re: remedied) by ADG over the years. Most of the stuff coming up these days is down in the fine detail - not major problems.

borner -> RE: Just get it right. (12/5/2008 4:08:03 AM)
Sounds like the EiA disaster as well!

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Just get it right. (12/5/2008 5:12:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: borner Sounds like the EiA disaster as well! I know close to nothing about EiA, but I looked up your opening post about speeding up play in EiA, and a few of the posts that followed. === MWIF doesn't have any files to load during play. After starting the game, everything is more or less kept in memory. The program does write to files, but these are done after every decision, so that is more or less going on continuously and the player doesn't notice. Each write to the disk is only a simple string, and 90% of the time it is less than 100 bytes of information. At startup, the program takes less than 1 minute to generate a new game and roughly half that time to restore a saved game. Of course, that might take longer on older machines. At one point in the development, the time it took to start a game was excessively long, but I have fixed that by compressing the graphics (JPG) files. I expect to compress/encrypt the saved games before release, and that will increase the load time of saved games (in order to decrypt them), but only slightly (if it is too painful, I simply won't compress them). The only slow point of play in MWIF is moving units, typically during Land and Naval actions, but that is a function of how quickly your opponent makes decisions. There is nothing to be done about that except possibly impose a Chess Clock type solution - which is definitely not something I intend to do for MWIF product 1. === From my vague impressions of other difficulties with EiA, I have a heightened sensitivity to making MWIF as easy to "get into" as possible, with a lot of attention spent on tutorials and the player's manual. === I know there is a lot more that could be discussed along these lines, but I really need to focus on code more than communications.

brian brian -> RE: Just get it right. (12/5/2008 11:12:15 PM)
gotta love ever more powerful machines making it easier for the programmers to bring us fast games. what's next? maneuvering units around on a Google Earth map? how 'bout a Civil War game on a Google Earth 3d type map with re-modeled historical vegetation, and the computer keeping track of your orderlies progress as they take your orders to advance over to the commander on the left flank that you can't quite see through that stand of trees in front of you? Your view of the battlefield could be dependent on where you are standing on it, plus you could have one of those hand-drawn maps from your Engineers. Given what those 3-D first person shooter games can do, I'm starting to look forward to the future of computer wargaming. meanwhile my new iPhone definitely has me looking forward to playing a wargame on a full touch screen monitor. sorry to ramble this thread off topic.

borner -> RE: Just get it right. (12/7/2008 9:26:22 PM)
I will admit I do not go through every WiF thread to stay 100% up on current events. That said, the impression I have gotten is that the team working on WiF is really trying to get a quality product out there. WIF and EIA are two very different games. The arugment there about game speed has nothing to do with my post here, only to reference that EiA was out before it was actually ready. I will gladly hold on to my $79.95 (or however much the game will be) for another 6-12 month or more, to be able to enjoy a game that is thought through, de-bugged, and ready to invest time in. As for Brian-Brian's touch screen monitor comment, that does sound like a great idea! Brian O.

Edfactor -> RE: Just get it right. (12/10/2008 10:56:53 PM)
#1 the game has to work but a big #2 is good AI

JamesM -> RE: Just get it right. (12/11/2008 8:05:11 AM)
Matrix is no 360 games. 360 never seemed to release anything that was quite finished!

hjaco -> RE: Just get it right. (12/11/2008 11:53:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: borner I will gladly hold on to my $79.95 (or however much the game will be) for another 6-12 month or more, to be able to enjoy a game that is thought through, de-bugged, and ready to invest time in. My two cents exactly. A complicated cult game like WIF must hit right in first try as the expectations are very high. After all we have waited so many years for a computerized version so some more months won't matter in that context.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 2:49:45 AM)
Well, since this thread keeps getting posts, I'll float an idea that has been getting kicked around and see what you-all think. === The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. There would be no reduction in price[:(] and the game would have the caveat that "things might go wrong".[sm=innocent0009.gif] Players who want to wait for a later version after several hundred have purchased the game and hammered away at it for several months, could cerainly do that.[sm=nono.gif] Players who are anxious to start playing MWIF and are willing to put up with potentially weekly/daily patches could jump right in.[sm=scared0008.gif] Very little thought/discussion has gone into this idea so far and there are numerous details that concern me (as the developer) about doing this.[sm=sad-1361.gif] But then, what do I know?[sm=dizzy.gif]

brian brian -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 5:10:42 AM)
I think you would get a lot of takers on that. I could see your side quite a bit too though. Basically it sounds like a buy-in-to-the-Beta-testing program. I would do it. Although at times I can post frequently, I am often using dial-up and have never been able to volunteer for the testing. I would have been willing to buy an e-copy of just the counters and the map and a bare-bones ability to move the counters and save a file that could be emailed a long time ago. Maybe if you need to do some sort of an early version, that could be an approach. Leave out combat and production and let players take care of that on their own...then this 'early' version could be dialed in a module at a time. But, then, preparing it that way kinda sounds like, more work. As soon as the Air-Sharing app on the iPhone adds a direct emailing capability, or AT&T + Apple get their 'tethering' program figured out, I can finally play WiF via email no matter what bizarre corner of BFE I end up working in. I can't wait. I think I'll go try and bump the net-play thread if there is one, I have a question related to that.

Michael the Pole -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 5:57:42 AM)
Actually, if you look at it rationally, what you're saying is that you are going to release the game with a commitment to keep working on it as long as possible/necessary to reach perfection. Since it is impossible to design a perfect game (I've been trying for 35+ years [X(]) what you'd be doing would be a vast improvement on the current usual state of affairs where designers routinely publish games that they know are not ready to play, but make no commitment to fix the stupid things. I've been holding my breath waiting for TWIF since I stopped wasting my valuable and increasingly scarce gaming time on Road to Victory (may it roast in the nether regions[sm=00000055.gif].) I know that most of you would consider that mere seconds on the local time scale. But why not launch now and harness the power of a thousand beta testers, all motivated by the desire to protect their monetary investment?!! A simple statement that WiF is one of the largest and most complex games ever published, with at least 2 years in development of thge electronic version and 20+ years play experience of the paper version, and a solemn commitment of the developement team to continue to polish the game with the help of the player's community would be a real breath of fresh air and would open my frustrated and cynical gamer's wallet! Let's kick the tires and light the fires! LAUNCH NOW! WiF FOR CHRISTMAS![&o] p.s. As one of the original Old Grognards, I hate to admit that I've never played the paper version of WiF. I'd like to associate myself with several other writers asking a little patience of you experienced WiFers, and add my request that the rules manual be written with the crosshairs set on the true novices. You guys need to expand the audience, not restrict it! The experience of other paper wargames snuffing it when translated to the monitor screen are well known to all of us.[:-][:D]

micheljq -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 1:47:14 PM)
What are the beta testers saying about the game, is it ready according to them? Are the beta testers able to play a full campaign of the MWiF yet? Are the beta testers still finding huge gaps in it or only minor bugs and minor adjustments they find? Is the AI tested yet? If this is released now, does it have the hot seat capibility at least? I guess internet/PBEM would be added later, but is there a possibility Matrix would mess up and say internet/PBEM will be added in a future expansion or in a MWiF2 (I would not like that personally). Maybe those questions can help you with this decision (which is not an easy one I guess), only my 2 cents. As for me, knowing the game would be released in april, I returned in the WoW world (quite a taking world, new guild, new faction, I am held for many months there). But anxious to finally play this game and looking each day at the threads from the office. [8\|]

YohanTM2 -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 1:53:16 PM)
If the game had a playable PBEM option then I would likely purchase at this point.

SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 2:23:54 PM)
I would be willing to participate in such a purchase. I have seen a RTS game done this way. It is a great way to get a lot of playtesters who are committed to the project. IF you decide to do this, is there a timeframe mind? (please note that the question can be answered no) [;)]

warspite1 -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 3:00:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Well, since this thread keeps getting posts, I'll float an idea that has been getting kicked around and see what you-all think. === The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. There would be no reduction in price[:(] and the game would have the caveat that "things might go wrong".[sm=innocent0009.gif] Players who want to wait for a later version after several hundred have purchased the game and hammered away at it for several months, could cerainly do that.[sm=nono.gif] Players who are anxious to start playing MWIF and are willing to put up with potentially weekly/daily patches could jump right in.[sm=scared0008.gif] Very little thought/discussion has gone into this idea so far and there are numerous details that concern me (as the developer) about doing this.[sm=sad-1361.gif] But then, what do I know?[sm=dizzy.gif] Steve I think that this is a good idea. I think the only way you can get a game of this magnitude done is to release it once it is at a certain stage - and then develop as you go. The difference here - as per the current beta testing method - is that firstly the beta testers have stumped up hard cash and so have an extra incentive to keep working at it and secondly that there are far more of them putting the game through its paces. My only concern would be - what stage of readiness is acceptable before asking people to pay good money? I bought EIA...... With WIF, I have played the boardgame, absolutely love it and desperately want this game in computer format as its the only way I can realistically play this in future. I would therefore be more than willing to spend - full price if necessary - on a game that is known to be "not the finished product" but that Matrix will undertake to keep developing and for which there is at least an outline development program and a commitment to issue regular patches.

FirstPappy -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 3:30:27 PM)
I'm in - assuming AI is included. What the heck, I've spent enough time and $$ doing the same with Paradox games so I'd like to spread the wealth around to another designer/publisher this time.

Gresbeck -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 3:45:39 PM)
quote: The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. Excellent idea. Consider the experience with Ageod WW1: an excellent game which couldn't be tested in all of the systems. Computers, configurations, softwares are so differentiated that is probably impossible to prevent all the possible bugs in all the possible systems. Your idea of a sort of "public beta under payment" would let your game be tested in many different systems, by people who would (reasonably) not complain about bugs.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 6:03:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: micheljq What are the beta testers saying about the game, is it ready according to them? Are the beta testers able to play a full campaign of the MWiF yet? Are the beta testers still finding huge gaps in it or only minor bugs and minor adjustments they find? Is the AI tested yet? If this is released now, does it have the hot seat capibility at least? I guess internet/PBEM would be added later, but is there a possibility Matrix would mess up and say internet/PBEM will be added in a future expansion or in a MWiF2 (I would not like that personally). Maybe those questions can help you with this decision (which is not an easy one I guess), only my 2 cents. As for me, knowing the game would be released in april, I returned in the WoW world (quite a taking world, new guild, new faction, I am held for many months there). But anxious to finally play this game and looking each day at the threads from the office. [8\|] I won't permit this to happen unless the beta testers have stopped finding bugs. And that certainly isn't the case at the present. But a decision like this can not be made on the spur of the moment. For one thing, the game would have to have complete documentation printed, which requires a lead time for proofreading, editing, and the printer. So if we want to do this, we need to plan for it soon. As someone commented in one of the above posts, it is the complexity of all the different interacting systems that raises this prospect. Is it even remotely possible to test all situations with 30 or 40 beta testers? I don't think so. [By the way, I expect to go to 40 beta testers somewhere around the beginning of the new year. I'll reactivate the thread requesting beta testers when that time comes.]

micheljq -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 6:55:48 PM)
The idea is quite interesting, I hope many committed player will purchase it even with caveats, and I think they will. I think It is important that you stay committed to support the product until it is stable and finished. Let's not say perfect, I guess at one point you will want to go on other projects & goals like all human beings. As for myself I decline for now. I am the only provider, new house, baby, milk, diapers I plan to invest $$ in MWiF with the spring's tax revenues return. If you go with this early release, I will inform my wiffer friends in Quebec city. All of them already have the board WiF, they should be interested in the computer WiF also, at least some of them. Thank you.

Edfactor -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 10:08:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets Well, since this thread keeps getting posts, I'll float an idea that has been getting kicked around and see what you-all think. === The idea is to release an early version of the game to those who want to run it through its paces and see if it has lingering bugs that the beta testers didn't come across. There would be no reduction in price[:(] and the game would have the caveat that "things might go wrong".[sm=innocent0009.gif] Players who want to wait for a later version after several hundred have purchased the game and hammered away at it for several months, could cerainly do that.[sm=nono.gif] Players who are anxious to start playing MWIF and are willing to put up with potentially weekly/daily patches could jump right in.[sm=scared0008.gif] Very little thought/discussion has gone into this idea so far and there are numerous details that concern me (as the developer) about doing this.[sm=sad-1361.gif] But then, what do I know?[sm=dizzy.gif] I would certainly buy a copy as soon as I could, the only downside is possible poor reviews/word of mouth which i would be worried about.

Rodwell -> RE: Just get it right. (12/12/2008 10:17:52 PM)
I would pay for an early version. More "testers/volunteers" is a good thing.

Ullern -> RE: Just get it right. (12/13/2008 12:58:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets quote: ORIGINAL: micheljq What are the beta testers saying about the game, is it ready according to them? Are the beta testers able to play a full campaign of the MWiF yet? Are the beta testers still finding huge gaps in it or only minor bugs and minor adjustments they find? Is the AI tested yet? If this is released now, does it have the hot seat capibility at least? I guess internet/PBEM would be added later, but is there a possibility Matrix would mess up and say internet/PBEM will be added in a future expansion or in a MWiF2 (I would not like that personally). Maybe those questions can help you with this decision (which is not an easy one I guess), only my 2 cents. As for me, knowing the game would be released in april, I returned in the WoW world (quite a taking world, new guild, new faction, I am held for many months there). But anxious to finally play this game and looking each day at the threads from the office. [8\|] I won't permit this to happen unless the beta testers have stopped finding bugs. And that certainly isn't the case at the present. But a decision like this can not be made on the spur of the moment. For one thing, the game would have to have complete documentation printed, which requires a lead time for proofreading, editing, and the printer. So if we want to do this, we need to plan for it soon. As someone commented in one of the above posts, it is the complexity of all the different interacting systems that raises this prospect. Is it even remotely possible to test all situations with 30 or 40 beta testers? I don't think so. [By the way, I expect to go to 40 beta testers somewhere around the beginning of the new year. I'll reactivate the thread requesting beta testers when that time comes.] This seems like a great idea. But I don't really understand what exactly the criteria to release this game are. Cause in this quoted post you say that you won't release it unless the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs. I thought that when the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs the game is done, and then maybe some really rare bugs turned up later and that needed a patch, but thats it. So what was really the idea difference? So I think it's a good idea to probe into this to figure out if an early release is possible, but I believe you must be more specific about what you plan not to include / finish in this first release.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Just get it right. (12/13/2008 3:37:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ullern quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets quote: ORIGINAL: micheljq What are the beta testers saying about the game, is it ready according to them? Are the beta testers able to play a full campaign of the MWiF yet? Are the beta testers still finding huge gaps in it or only minor bugs and minor adjustments they find? Is the AI tested yet? If this is released now, does it have the hot seat capibility at least? I guess internet/PBEM would be added later, but is there a possibility Matrix would mess up and say internet/PBEM will be added in a future expansion or in a MWiF2 (I would not like that personally). Maybe those questions can help you with this decision (which is not an easy one I guess), only my 2 cents. As for me, knowing the game would be released in april, I returned in the WoW world (quite a taking world, new guild, new faction, I am held for many months there). But anxious to finally play this game and looking each day at the threads from the office. [8\|] I won't permit this to happen unless the beta testers have stopped finding bugs. And that certainly isn't the case at the present. But a decision like this can not be made on the spur of the moment. For one thing, the game would have to have complete documentation printed, which requires a lead time for proofreading, editing, and the printer. So if we want to do this, we need to plan for it soon. As someone commented in one of the above posts, it is the complexity of all the different interacting systems that raises this prospect. Is it even remotely possible to test all situations with 30 or 40 beta testers? I don't think so. [By the way, I expect to go to 40 beta testers somewhere around the beginning of the new year. I'll reactivate the thread requesting beta testers when that time comes.] This seems like a great idea. But I don't really understand what exactly the criteria to release this game are. Cause in this quoted post you say that you won't release it unless the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs. I thought that when the Beta testers have stopped finding new bugs the game is done, and then maybe some really rare bugs turned up later and that needed a patch, but thats it. So what was really the idea difference? So I think it's a good idea to probe into this to figure out if an early release is possible, but I believe you must be more specific about what you plan not to include / finish in this first release. There is a long list of test plans and scripts (developed by Robert and Jimm) that need to be thoroughly run through after each program update. Despite the hundreds (over a thousand?) items they identified from their close reading of RAW/RAC, there are still numerous other fine details popping up from time to time. For instance, the various questions about how to program the rules (concerning sequence of execution mostly these days). Then there are the 5 modes of play, the 81 optional rules, and the 11 scenarios. Simply listing all the possible cases is mind-boggling. So, even if the beta testers aren't finding anything new, that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of bugs waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting buyer. I personally find new bugs in each new version I upload for the beta testers that the beta testers never report. My paranoia is fed by all of the above. The idea here is to increase the number of people pushing the game in different directions from dozens to hundreds.

peskpesk -> RE: Just get it right. (12/13/2008 9:35:48 AM)
Steve To get more testers involved is a very, very good plan! But personally I believe that selling the Beta of the game without the AI included faces the risk that people without testing experience quickly become tired. Since testing the game with only hot seat or just playing against yourself is a very cumbersome task. And hence the idea to increase the number of people pushing the game in different directions from dozens to hundreds will be come less effective. With AI included the testing will be come more fun and challenging, also the AI will be tested and needed improvements discovered. Also there is a risk with letting the game out on the market, even when it�s a Beta, that the game will get a low quality stamp. Even tough that is not the case. Peter

Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Just get it right. (12/13/2008 2:48:14 PM)
Wow! I cant believe the hypocrisy...well...maybe I can. And to post this early release idea on the "Just get it right" thread??? Pretty funny! Here comes another EiA.

Stabilo -> RE: Just get it right. (12/13/2008 3:18:10 PM)
If you sell the game now - I will buy it and love to install patches. If you are looking for more testers, well this is a even better message! [:)]

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