New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (Full Version)

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Greg Wilcox -> New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/25/2008 9:39:57 PM)

A new version of the 1.30 Update(c) is now available as a Public Beta via our Members Club. While we do final testing we figured we'd offer you a change to get it early as well. This is still a beta, but it's stable and solid as far as we can tell. Barring any major issues being found, this will become the official update.

You can download this as a Registered Download as long as you have registered your Guns of August serial number in our Members Club (click on the MEMBERS link in the top nav bar).

Changes from 1.25

Features
1. Upgraded the AI to make it more active, less "stand pat".
2. Upgraded AI to make it a bit "smarter" tactically
3. Upgraded CP AI so as to produce a greater chance of the CP AI not following an "east first" strategy.
4. Increased possibility of other neutrals being outraged by attacks on Belgium and Holland.
5. Allowed neutrals to be concerned by more than 1 invasion of a neutral per turn.
6. Increased size of naval groupings. Affects battles and searches.
7. Completely rewrote transfers of RMs, food and Industry points between countries. There are now overland and overseas transfers, the overseas requiring a port which is a national port if available or an allied one. It should now be possible as an example, to transfer food from Britain to Russia by using shipping in the Atlantic, West Med and East Med to the Greek port of Salonika and then overland through a conquered Bulgaria and an allied Romania to Odessa. I still have some tweaks to do on this but it should be pretty close. One thing that is not done at this time is the limits on transfers caused by the value of the route and another is allied minor country resources are not available.
8. Added a small piece of text to the display of hex data, to the right of the trench strength will now display somehting like "F:1 R:0 I:0" as you pass the mouse over. Its the actual amount of food, raw material and industry in a hex which should clear up concerns where more than one is in a hex but that isn't displayed by the icon.


Fixes
1. Fixed an isolated city problem. The case mentioned here being a surrounded Posen.
2. Fixed a 1 impulse delay on British units amphibbing to France before they could use rail movement in France.
3. The fact the the TE player wasn't getting the "sunk" message for his own ships.
4. New York overstacking problem.
5. Terrain value of hexes 31,41 and 32,41
6. Fixed naval transport icon



BK6583 -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/25/2008 11:23:32 PM)

Frank,

Some comments and observations regarding the CP AI. First, going back to 1.23, it does not appear to research Gas. I made a house rule for myself not to research it as TE, but even in May 1915 no gas attacks by CP AI. The 'tactical' CP AI, like the TE AI, continues to make fruitless attacks taking lopsided casualties in the process. This may be historical, but I've no problem holding ground as the the TE - in fact, I can't recall a game against the CP AI where I was genuinely threatened. When choosing East First or that 30% chance variant of doing I believe Moltke, where it goes both directions, CP AI still leaves the West Front with a dangerously inadequate garrison. As I build up lots of TE arty, I suspect, as in previous games, particularly with Britain and France pretty much unscathed, that I'll be blowing through the German line in the West in 1916 - again. Lastly, I assume it's WAD where when Serbia looses Belgrade, the supply from the remaining cities goes down to almost zero without French or British sea supply? In two games so far when I got pushed back and hunkered down as Serbia in the reamining two southern cites, they just melted away (with 1.30).

Regards,

Bob



Lascar -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 12:23:51 AM)

The date stamp at the download link says Nov. 21, 2008 so is this actually the most recent version of 1.30c?



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 12:34:01 AM)

Strange, the upload says Nov 25th.

Can Britain order a sea transfer on turn 1? If it can, that's the wrong one.




FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 12:43:51 AM)

quote:

Some comments and observations regarding the CP AI. First, going back to 1.23, it does not appear to research Gas.


No research is hard-coded, its up to the AI to decide if it wants a technology. I'm not sure why it would choose not to research gas, perhaps its economic points are simply too stretched.

quote:

I made a house rule for myself not to research it as TE, but even in May 1915 no gas attacks by CP AI. The 'tactical' CP AI, like the TE AI, continues to make fruitless attacks taking lopsided casualties in the process. This may be historical, but I've no problem holding ground as the the TE - in fact, I can't recall a game against the CP AI where I was genuinely threatened.


This is with 1.30? The game is already unbalanced against the CP, a human Entente against an AI CP just compounds that. Except by allowing the CP AI to cheat I'm not sure what I could do since even human CP players have a struggle.

quote:

Lastly, I assume it's WAD where when Serbia looses Belgrade, the supply from the remaining cities goes down to almost zero without French or British sea supply? In two games so far when I got pushed back and hunkered down as Serbia in the reamining two southern cites, they just melted away (with 1.30).


I'll have to look at it but I would think that as long as the cities maintain an LOC to each other their own supply shouldn't be too bad although there's some very low LOC hexes in Serbia so supply will be low in those hexes regardless. If the cities become isolated from each well that would make things pretty bad.



Lascar -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 3:15:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Strange, the upload says Nov 25th.

Can Britain order a sea transfer on turn 1? If it can, that's the wrong one.



I am referring to the one in the members section under registered downloads. Is there another location I should be looking at for it?



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 4:21:46 AM)

I'm referring to the same one



Lascar -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 7:54:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

I'm referring to the same one

Here is a print screen of what is located at the registered games. The extracted file shows a time stamp of 11/21/08

[image]local://upfiles/1508/30AAAE64322147159A681F294F5C2F28.jpg[/image]



HannoMeier -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 4:11:06 PM)

Hello Frank,

I am currently the CP in a long game with Dan Stafford (currently M/A 1917). We will end this game with 1.24beta3

I would like to share some personal observations for future development:

It is possible to with with the CP, but you have to win a quick victory in 1914/early 1915 against France. In the long duration game, the CP could most likely not hold against an experinced TE player.

3 main points:

1. Trenches are too weak:
- In 1916 I had in general 2 Corps with about 30-35 points along the western front in L4 trenches (more CV in critical places). The plan was to absorb some TE attacks while concentrating on Russia and the Balkans.
- These defenders were simply blown away with a 4 full corps french or english attack. Losses were something like A15 D25 and hex taken.
- I had to switch to a loosing mobile battle because I could not count on holding a L4 hex with a decent garrison
- In 1917 I even lost a hex with 40 CV defenders to 72 CV attackers.
- The central powers could not stack 50+ CV in each hex, they don't have the ressources for that
- I would consider increasing trenches to something like Level 6 in the west and maybe Level 2-3 in the east. This forces you to develop technology to break the trenches.

2. Isolated units survive too long
- Isolated units (not in a fortress) survive several months behind the frontline
- it seems they also could take on refit replacements while isolated
- I heard this is covered in 1.30
- Please make sure that enemy cities and hex control is converted when they are behind the frontline.
- Offensives are too expensive to use for the conversion of each 1 pt minor city (now they are enemy controlled behind the front forever)

3. Russia seems too strong to beat (unless you choose an east first strategy)
- Russia has lots of corps, but limited offensive potential (and hq points are expensive to buy with the limited production)
- In key areas Russia could entrench in L4 trenches with strong CV units making progress for the CP nearly impossible.
- Maybe there should be a max trench reduction for the russians. Like L2 or L3 max.
- historically, the Russian railway system collaped during WW1. You should consider an onging reduction over the years as it it simulated in several boardgames (like Decision Games Storm of Steel) to simulate the internal lines mobility advantage of the CP.
- Did anyone beat the russians after first conquering lots of France and only defend the CP fortresses in the East?

Just some food for thought.

Cheers Hanno



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 6:38:49 PM)

Lascar, understood, what I meant was my upload (which is on my computer and on the ftp site) says November 25th. So the uploaded version was probably the same as the last one. No big deal, I'll upload again.



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 6:42:48 PM)

hanno, the isolated units thing is already fixed in 1.30

I've added a couple of changes, first, I've made trenches a bit more effective, I'm just testing it now. Also, I've left Russian trench effectiveness alone and in fact made it one less than it says. So a level 4 Russian trench will be equivalent to a level 3 French trench. We'll see how that works out.

Also, I've changed hex 45,38 from sea to open terrain.




BK6583 -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 9:14:21 PM)

Hi Frank,

I have to follow up what Hjaco posted earlier - siege arty is not firing when ordered to so - first impulse as CP and the German siege arty did not fire on Liege. Reloaded saved game several times and it would not shoot!

Regards,

Bob



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 9:50:12 PM)

Bob, that repeats? Could you send me your save such as the autosaveOrders or whatever that is before the resolution?

fhunter@telus.net



hjaco -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 10:26:40 PM)

When buying diplomatic points that part of the national screen is missing so you have to click on it and at the same time buy a point to see how many have been bought on your side. You can off course cancel the purchase but still quite annoying [:(]



hjaco -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 10:32:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Also, I've left Russian trench effectiveness alone and in fact made it one less than it says. So a level 4 Russian trench will be equivalent to a level 3 French trench. We'll see how that works out.



Careful please Frank. That should apply to both sides in the east as German corps are strong enough as it is to overcome for Russia. Otherwise Germany can just make a "Fortress East" strategy with few corps on the Eastern front swarming the wallies for years with the bulk of their army.



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/26/2008 11:54:38 PM)

Oh I know, but German trench tech should be the same regardless of which front its on. On the other hand, perhaps Russian artillery should not be penalized as much as it is currently and should instead enjoy the R&D increases available to French and British artillery?

Another rule I'm playing with is reducing strategic movement as national morale falls. In the case of Russia the first 20% of its morale lost has no effect but after that it does. So at 50% morale the Russian strategic movement would drop by 7 from 24 to 17. France and Germany on the other hand would be reduced more slowly.




hjaco -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/27/2008 8:25:52 AM)

I can see for programming purposes why you would want to keep German trench benefits the same on all fronts but as far as I have understood this the current possible change is made due to game balancing and perhaps some historical records.

As neither side used elaborate trench war fare in the east then either both sides or neither sides should be allowed to do so in GOA. You could argue that Germany had knowledge and Russia not but the incentive for Germany was simply never pressent.

Same applies IMO with game balancing.

Russian artillery is IMO correct represented in comparison with other countries. They used largely older models not quite suitable for WW1 warfare and their artillery tactics up to Brusilov's era was bad. Besides improving the efficiency of their 3 artillery units won't matter much on such a large front as they can only concentrate on a hex or two at a time.

Besides even if we assume a level 4 dug in Russia in the shortest 20 hex front possible (highly inlikely) they simply don't have 4 corps to hold all of this front while also guarding the Caucasus and against invasions in the Baltic. It is more reasonable to assume an average of 3 corps a hex with more in the important sectors. And to entrench to level 4 in 20 hexes (possible more hexes) requires 80 trenches or the expenditure of 16 IP which is 5 activations not used against CP. Furthermore once this front is breached in a couple of hexes this investment is largely lost as the front has to be moved to plug the holes.

Finally this is what high tech artillery, poison gas and sometimes assault troops (if feeling rich) are there for. I think Hanno Meier simply have waited to long to address the Tsar and without proper research.



hjaco -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/27/2008 8:34:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter
Another rule I'm playing with is reducing strategic movement as national morale falls. In the case of Russia the first 20% of its morale lost has no effect but after that it does. So at 50% morale the Russian strategic movement would drop by 7 from 24 to 17. France and Germany on the other hand would be reduced more slowly.


Quite interesting change but what is the reasoning behind that?

I can see in the case of Russia that starvation effects are having influence on their infrastructure diverting assets away from military purposes to civilian purposes to try and feed its population. Same goes with other countries but largely Germany and OH. But say France?

So I would rather suggest linking lowered rail movement to morale loss due to hunger lost morale?

Ah now I think I understand. So the more cities you loose the more mileage of tracks you have lost and therefore the decrease? In any case the loss of ones capital cities should have a crippling effect as they are normally traffic hubs.

Yes that would make sense Frank [:)]



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/27/2008 5:08:23 PM)

For Russian artillery I changed them to being one level less than the West instead of two. Their trenches received only a small reduction in effectiveness which only at level 4 works out to a complete level loss (making them equivalent to level 3's).

I played a game with both of these changes and it really wasn't noticeable so I suppose it doesn't matter if the rules were changed or not.

Although I played till the middle of 1916 Russia was never at the point of suffering from strategic movement reductions but the logic behind that change is simply that as a nation nears collapse the rail system is probably not in the same state it was at the beginning of the war. Its lost physical infrastructure, lost personnel, has been tasked to meet pressing civilian needs etc. However, there would always be some strategic movement available even if the nation had only 1 morale point left.



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/27/2008 9:47:03 PM)

By the way, due to Thanksgiving in the US Greg isn't around so I'll have to wait till Dec 1st before I can upload anything. Just wanted to let you guys know that.

Once that is uploaded I'll probably be busy finishing up the scenarios of another game now that my books have arrived but of course if anything urgent comes up any of you can email me to let me know there's a problem.



flintlock -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/28/2008 4:18:36 AM)

Thanks for the continued support on this game, Frank.



FM WarB -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/28/2008 7:24:59 PM)

I can wait til Dec.1. I'd like an updated list of the changes, though, as it seems there are many since 130.c, Nov.21.

Just what is this other project, Frank? Inquiring minds want to know.



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/29/2008 1:00:04 AM)

The "other" project is a Napoleonic game using a new version of the system I used in Danube.



FM WarB -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/29/2008 9:35:32 PM)

Ah, Nappy, my first love. It seems Matrix has not put Campaigns on the Danube on sale; I've been considering trying it, though things seem at Waffenstillstand on that games forum.



hjaco -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/29/2008 10:22:13 PM)

Transfer over land is linked with rail movement allowance but how does that work?

Say as AH you have 18 rail movement in the following turn and transfer 10 raw materials to Germany.

Does that mean that 10 rail movement is automatically being subtracted from your allowance for that turn i.e. counts as already "spend"?

Or do you have to make sure that sufficient remains on the following turn as transfers now takes one turn delay?



Lascar -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/29/2008 10:53:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Transfer over land is linked with rail movement allowance but how does that work?

Say as AH you have 18 rail movement in the following turn and transfer 10 raw materials to Germany.

Does that mean that 10 rail movement is automatically being subtracted from your allowance for that turn i.e. counts as already "spend"?

Or do you have to make sure that sufficient remains on the following turn as transfers now takes one turn delay?

Also, along those lines. When transferring material over seas sea transports are now needed. So if the British have 2 sea transports on duty in the eastern Med. and are able to transfer materials to Sevastapol do they need to assign additional ships for sea transports or can the existing two be used for double duty i.e. transports to Britain and to Sevastopol. I would think they would need additional transports assigned.



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/29/2008 11:57:10 PM)

quote:

Does that mean that 10 rail movement is automatically being subtracted from your allowance for that turn i.e. counts as already "spend"?


Yes

quote:

do they need to assign additional ships for sea transports


Yes

quote:

or can the existing two be used for double duty


Nope



hjaco -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/30/2008 6:43:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

quote:

or can the existing two be used for double duty


Nope


In that case what takes precedence? Both is being handled automatic at time of delivery?



FrankHunter -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (11/30/2008 8:06:37 PM)

The normal shipping takes precedence, whatever surviving shipping that is left over may be used for transfers.



hjaco -> RE: New Version of the 1.30(c) Public Beta has been uploaded (12/1/2008 12:37:46 PM)

When doing transfers and cancelling the transaction the allotted rail movements are being counted as "used" regardless whether the transfer is being ordered executed or not.



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