An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (Full Version)

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jdhalfrack -> An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/2/2008 4:21:19 PM)

So, I've been working on this idea for a few weeks now... and I'm not really sure why. I like the BCS Bowl format, but I thought of an interesting idea. So, even though I posted it over on football-freaks, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

http://ncaa.mrdixon.net

JD



Bobolini -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/2/2008 6:25:30 PM)

JD, formats of all kinds are plausible but the biggest hurdle is the greed of the Presidents of the BCS conferences. They can't agree how to share revenue. It's sad that money takes presidence over sportsmanship. I think a part of my lust for sports died the day of free agency. That and massive media coverage have ruined sports. Of course that is my opinion but I did grow up in the 60's and have seen the growth (mostly in the wrong direction).



DAWUSS -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/2/2008 7:45:58 PM)

I would have one little change:

To preserve the sanctity of the Rose Bowl, the Big 10 Champion and PAC-10 Champion will play for the Rose Bowl on January 1st. The rest of the teams prep for the offseason. Everyone else has the playoff you mentioned, and the championship game rotates among the current BCS NC location cycle



Great White -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/2/2008 10:16:28 PM)

I will never accept any thing that does not have the following, thus until these requirements are met I will never agree that any champion outside of University of Miami Hurricanes or when University of Miami Hurricanes lose to Florida Gators or Florida State University, voted champion Florida Gators or Florida State University. Hey, if they can have biases determining Div. 1A bowl champions, then I can choose to only accept the ones that I have rooting interests in.
 
No polls involved at all,
At least 25% of the programs,
No cutting the regular-season shorter to have longer post-season, in fact increase the regular-season schedules to have all 11-conference programs, 5-more games for divisional foes of the conference and 5-out of conference programs
Organization(s) not connected with NCAA and Div. 1A FootBall participating programs setting schedules,
Scheduling determined by the programs' previous seasons performances and conferences' opponents,
Every conference must have 12-programs and has no conference championship, use NFL division winner determination to earns winners automatic births into the playoffs,
The Playoff's home stadiums are decided by the programs with the best record or decided ahead of time; however, never restricted to just a few programs' home stadiums.
All revuene from the playoffs are split between all Div. 1A programs, with the exception of keeping programs from being dropped,
No bowl tie-ins at all, they only involved if their regional programs are at home
and
The bowls system can used for those who do not make the playoffs
 
I cannot think of any more; however, I once posted a thread that had my complete playoffs, but I cannot find it, so this will have do for now.
 
 
 



Great White -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/3/2008 6:07:42 PM)

You know another thing that frustrates me is that when the Div. 1A CFB programs were increasing there was not a reasonable year to year limit put on their expansion. Do not get me wrong in The GW'sSA's sports I will have 384-teams/programs/franchises; however, The GW'sSA's sports will also have a much larger rosters and time for PreSeason, Regular-Season and playoff format. So, at the start of expanding there should have been a lot larger, outside the box and future thinking, if they were only going to have a small amount of bowl games, then there should have put a limit on the amount of Div. 1A programs, per state. It is a whole lot easier to manage the expansion to more programs, than to manage the deciding which programs to decrease or letting economics unfairly destroy programs. Of course, I would want the largest amount of programs allowed, when there was largest amount of programs earning playoff spots and The NCAA can and are willing to actually police the programs.



mbsports -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/3/2008 6:58:15 PM)

You know I'd rather we go back a bit while moving forward.  I'd like to see the Fiesta, Orange, Rose, Cotton, and Sugar Bowls retain some of their historical nature, which seems to have been really diminished over the BCS period with the exception of the Rose Bowl.  Because we have the ability to do whatever the heck we want in the sim world I've run my Bowl Section of college a little differently.  We basically have +1 but with a twist.  The rules to get into our national championship round are that you must #1. Win your conference and #2. Win your Bowl Game
From those schools we determined the top 2 teams to play in the championship.

Now if you haven't done those two things then in my opinion you have nothing to complain about. The way it has worked in the past is that for Season 1 we had the following occur: 

Boston College won the ACC and went to the Orange Bowl to face Big East Champion Rutgers.

UCLA was undefeated and took on the Big 10 champs Ohio State in the Rose Bowl

The Big 12 went to Missouri who played Pac 10 #2 in the Fiesta Bowl while SEC Champ LSU took on Kansas who had a single loss in the Big 12 but b/c it was to Mizzou didn't win the conference.

LSU and Missouri both won their Bowl Games but both had 2 losses over the course of the season while Boston College had a single loss and UCLA was undefeated after beating Ohio State.  They were the only 2 teams that were credibly qualified.  LSU did everything they could after early season upset losses, but with 2 of those the judgement was that teams with 0 or 1 loss would slot ahead of 2 loss teams.  None of the smaller conferences such as C-USA, MAC, WAC, Mtn West, Sun Belt put together a season impressive enough to be considered a top team and none went undefeated. 

Therefore it was an easy choice for us - Boston College vs. UCLA in the final

In our second season Big East Champs Rutgers had a pair of losses and took on ACC Champ Virginia Tech, who was undefeated in the Orange Bowl while Arizona State again made it to the Fiesta Bowl to take on undefeated Oklahoma.  Undefeated Illinois took on Oregon in the Rose while the Gators with 2 losses took on Kansas in the Sugar Bowl.

Florida, Illinois, Oklahoma, and Rutgers won the games but with Illinois and Oklahoma undefeated it was again an easy choice for us.

One caveat I've always kept is that if we end up with a small school pulling off an undefeated season or we have legitimately 3-4 schools who should be in a playoff we take 1 v 4 and 2 v 3 and then the winners face off.

Overall I love the Bowl System and I'd like it to be more traditional with great conference rivalries continuing to exist.  Setting up the Bowls as Quarter and Semi Finals to me would ruin them as spectacle games.  I don't want to see that happen.  I would rather see the Bowls go back to a reasonable schedule and then we take on a week for a championship game.  At some point we're always going to question the seeding or who is in/out but I think if you look at College Hoops you'll see the regular season pretty much sucks... and this is from me, who is heading to Ford Field in a bit to watch my Spartans get thumped in a stadium that is really crummy to watch basketball in.

Preserve the past and improve the future - they can both be done, someone just has to have the will and ability and power to make it happen.



Marauders -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/3/2008 7:16:54 PM)

JD, I set up a format a year or so ago while I was looking at this.

It basically did what yours does, but it used the bowl games for round one.  Most of the traditional bowl match-ups were preserved.

The problem is that the NCAA and NFL playoffs start to merge a little, and that could be a television problem, but as long as the NCAA doesn't go as long as the NFL, and the NFL retains the two week playoffs to Superbowl gap, it should be fine.

I may still have it as a Word file.



Great White -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/3/2008 8:09:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

The problem is that the NCAA and NFL playoffs start to merge a little, and that could be a television problem


That is a good point, I have this problem with just The NFL games*, let alone if The NCAA Div. 1A games was involved. However, those that have The Direct TV's NFL package, The NCAA Div. 1A package and Tivo or another TV recording device can simply record the ones they want to watch, but cannot watch, and watch them later. Then again, in the future this could be solved by having both set of games viewable On-Line, even after the games are played and without paying for it. Just like it is now for the regular TV shows.

*-When three-good enough games happen at once; I can switch back and forth during commericals for upto two-games.

What also would make it better would be to start The NCAA Div. 1A practices earlier and less too long breaks between Regular-Season's last games (Conference Championships or not) and playoff. Resulting in The NCAA Div. 1A playoff games finishing before The NFL's Playoffs ever start. Of course, The NCAA Div. 1A playoff games and The NFL Regular-Season games would merge, then again we already have that.

With the above solutions, I would accept this problem, if it meant a truer and larger NCAA Div. 1A playoff than what most are looking for.



Great White -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/3/2008 8:14:32 PM)

Another huge problem is that NCAA Div. 1A FB BS games are, in the near future, going to be broadcasted on pay for cable channel ESPN!

I hate that The NFL has taken some of their games to pay for cable channels! At least it was not their playoff games.



Marauders -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/12/2008 6:36:32 PM)

The simple route to go would be a Bowl +2 format.

That would use the four major BSC bowls as first round playoffs (second round if championship games are included).

Fiesta: Big 12 Champion vs at-large

Orange: ACC Champion vs at-large

Rose: Big 10 Champion vs Pac 10 Champion

Sugar: SEC Champion vs at-large

The at-large teams would be seeded by BSC standing compared with the teams with automatic bowl bids.

Bowl +1 would take the winning four teams by seed.

Bowl +2 would be the National Championship game.

That allows the five large conferences to have automatic seeding of their conference champion teams with the three at-large teams from any other 1A or 1AA conference to be included.

In addition to the above, the conferences with automatic bids would have to have a conference championship game. The loser of that game will not be eligible for the BSC championship games.

The Big East, WAC, Sun Belt, Mountain West, Mid-American, Conference USA, and the Independent schools would be eligible for at-large invites based on national ranking. The top six BCS ranked schools would have to play one extra game during the championship week that the large conference play to see who gets the three invites to the BCS games.

This would allow the Bowl tradition to continue while having a playoff system that includes non-BCS conference teams to compete.

This is how it would have worked this season without the extra pre-bowl games:

Fiesta: Oklahoma 12-1 vs Cincinnati 11-2

Orange: Virginia Tech 9-4 vs Utah 12-0

Rose: Penn State 11-1 vs USC 11-1

Sugar: Florida 12-1 vs Boise State 12-0

What about Texas, Texas Tech, Alabama, Ohio State, TCU or other schools that ended up with better BSC ranking than some of the schools that got in? Well, too bad for them. The penalty for having an automatic bid is that only conference champions get to move forward. They had their chances and lost.

If the other conference play a pre-bowl game, they will have a chance to get bumped off by high BSC ranked teams too.



Great White -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/12/2008 9:58:08 PM)

Marauders,
 
                Problem with that is exactly what happening right now in The Big 12 and what happens every year with the non-traditional conference programs. People can say look at the competition they play, but without unbaised organization setting every programs' schedules and basing it on previous seasons' performances we really have no idea how tough any program's schedule really is. People can also say look they could simply move into a traditional conference, they forget that money controls whether those conferences want them, thus very few ever get in. I have to edit this message later, to include more points, just on the tip of my fingers, but out of reach of my mind.

Some thing I thought of while riding my bike home form working on The GW'sSA at M-D C's Homestead Campus, local junior college, it really is just statistical bases type question and not proof and etc. How can the supporters of The Bowls and too incomplete playoffs explain the fact that in the rest of the world's sports and their sports' levels that have complex, if not nearly complete*, playoffs and most threw away any bowls* yet we witness little complaints* for going backwards and to any thing resemebling bowls?

*-I truly know of no sports and their sports' levels that have bowls and rare that any are so lacking that I find any wrong and witness others finding any wrong; but I was just trying to be safe.



Marauders -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/12/2008 10:35:01 PM)

Split conferences like the Big 12 and ACC could allow for 2 playoff games for a conference winner at the end of the schedule.

These organizations make their own rules for conference championships.  The universities can't cry if they don't win it - especially if the conference has a winner take all playoff game for the championship.  Too bad for Alabama, but they lost, and that would have counted in this format.



Great White -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/13/2008 6:40:43 PM)

Is everyone alright with me, slightly changing this thread's subject? Marauders do you think we should move to new thread?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Split conferences like the Big 12 and ACC could allow for 2 playoff games for a conference winner at the end of the schedule.


The problem with that occurs when obviously there are more than 4-programs tied, if I understand what you proposing, then less obviously it cannot address three or more-divisional opponents tied in conference records or just divisional records. I mean how would one work it out? Oklahoma playing Texas and Texas Tech playing Oklahoma and the winners what just enter The BCS? Even if one adds a Conference Championship Game- 3-games, Oklahoma VS Texas winner VS Texas Tech VS Oklahoma winner, it does not make sense to? It just does not work? If you leave at least 4-weaks incase of complete divisional ties (#4 Program VS #5 Program, #3 Program VS #2 Program; #4 Program VS #5 Program winner VS #1 Program, #3 Program VS #2 Program winner VS #2 Program; #4 Program VS #5 Program winner VS #1 Program winner VS #3 Program VS #2 Program winner VS #2 Program winner) and Championship Game (Division A winner VS Division B winner) that is before The Div. 1A Playoff; most Tradition & Bowl people would jump up in arms about the length and compexity. In any conference playoff formate we are talking about, how would one decide home programs and away programs, even more important how would one determine programs' rankings? I mean it would just be easier to do what I proposed, heck to make work one has to incorporate some of what I propose any ways and what most people want.

quote:

These organizations make their own rules for conference championships.  The universities can't cry if they don't win it - especially if the conference has a winner take all playoff game for the championship.  Too bad for Alabama, but they lost, and that would have counted in this format.


And that is the problem, too much power resides in the local conferences, some new organization and The NCAA or The NCAA needs to come together force unitality of the best (for me fairness to all programs, opporunities for all to succeed and most representative) system. It is like what happens when any country's federal Gov. decides not to regulate over industries and states on the issues they have been assigned to.
See above and what I have already posted here about the rest.



Marauders -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/14/2008 12:30:58 AM)

quote:

The problem with that occurs when obviously there are more than 4-programs tied, if I understand what you proposing, then less obviously it cannot address three or more-divisional opponents tied in conference records or just divisional records. I mean how would one work it out?


How does the NFL or DIV II and DIV III football work it out? Record and head to head play are not the only tie breakers.

The Big 12 has its champion. That is Oklahoma. Texas, Texas Tech, and Missouri had chances during the season or in the championship game to better Oklahoma. They didn't do it.

If one wants just the big schools in, then one could just go by the BCS ranking. The BCS ranking is a little biased with strength of schedule though, as the higher SoS teams end up with a higher SoS year after year.

What I proposed above would allow the big school conferences to have an automatic bid even if their best team doesn't have as great of a record or BCS ranking as some other schools. The ACC didn't have a dominating team this year, but that is a tough conference with many schools.

If the Big 12, Big 10, Pac 10, ACC, and SEC each have a conference championship game, and the top schools from the other conferences play for bids, then the head to head competition should prove the most worthy teams. Texas and Texas Tech would be out - just as they are now, as is Alabama. Should these teams get another chance when other conference champions have not?

One could go to a full 16 team bid system and forego the traditional Bowl game match ups. That would be fair enough, but it would certainly eliminate a lot of tradition with one blow. As long as all of the schools know what they have to do to get in, I don't see too many problems with the aforementioned system.



Great White -> RE: An NCAA playoff format (even though I don't really care) (12/15/2008 6:58:02 PM)

When I go to The NFL's tie breaking procedures and compared how The NCAA's all Divisions, let alone Div. 1A, set schedules, The BS and etc to the how The NFL set schedules, determines who are The Top 12-franchises and etc I find there is no way one could use The NFL tie breaking procedures*. Plus, The NFL has division franchises play twice, by way also a perfect finanical idea with home and away set-up, and use divisional games to determine divisional playoff franchises. It makes little logical sense to first tie-breaking step use all the games played within a conference to determine divisional playoff programs, but makes perfect sense to use conference games to determine third tie-breaking step, after head to head games. Especially, in split conferences, of any size.

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

*- I also strongly disagree with The NFL's Strength of Victory, Strenth of Schedule (since no longer using previous seasons' records to completely determining current seasons' non-divisional schedules) and all other determinates past Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. I must say though I have not taken the time to find better tie breaking procedure.

The same can be made for all other sports' levels being compared to The NCAA's Div. 1A, simply because of not having a playoff determinates to set-up a playoff.

quote:

The BCS ranking is a little biased with strength of schedule though, as the higher SoS teams end up with a higher SoS year after year.


How so?

quote:

What I proposed above would allow the big school conferences to have an automatic bid even if their best team doesn't have as great of a record or BCS ranking as some other schools. The ACC didn't have a dominating team this year, but that is a tough conference with many schools.

If the Big 12, Big 10, Pac 10, ACC, and SEC each have a conference championship game, and the top schools from the other conferences play for bids, then the head to head competition should prove the most worthy teams. Texas and Texas Tech would be out - just as they are now, as is Alabama. Should these teams get another chance when other conference champions have not?


I cannot answer the question, in my reason neither can anyone else, until schedules are set by outside organization. Once that is achieved then every conference winner should receive higher playoff games then non-conference winners.

quote:

One could go to a full 16 team bid system and forego the traditional Bowl game match ups. That would be fair enough, but it would certainly eliminate a lot of tradition with one blow. As long as all of the schools know what they have to do to get in, I don't see too many problems with the aforementioned system.


I think 16-programs playoff is too small and simple, there are currently only 11-conferences there would need to be 8-conferences and no independent programs equals 96-programs (I perfer realignment by geography) and thus 24-programs playoff, with 8-conferences' winners having a bye, 8-conferences' runner-ups at home versus 8-programs (any amount from any conference) with next best records. Which I believe our differences are not that far way. There are just too many programs (119-programs, ton are just barely surviving any ways), for what I believe is the most possible playoff of the future.

If I was in control, then I would use the limit in possible playoffs. 96-teams are the limit, at least as far I can work out, and thus by the 25% of total making the playoffs rule- creates 384-world wide teams/programs/franchises that are in 32-conferences. Thus, that is exactly what I will use in The GW'sSA and all the Sports' Associations and thus Sports' Levels. yes, I know it is possible, because I have worked out three-years worth schedules and etc.





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