Is the Ki-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (Full Version)

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DivePac88 -> Is the Ki-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 12:41:29 PM)

What’s wrong with the Ki-43-Ib Oscar, some players call it a dog. But packaged with a good pilot I can see nothing wrong with it. Also in comparison with Allied fighters of the same period it seems ok. About the only problem I can see is that it is maybe under gunned for taking on Allied bombers. It also appears that the Japanese pilot’s only complaint about it, was that it was less maneuverable than the Ki-27 Nate. Official USAAF analysis stated that it was a dangerous opponent.[:'(]



String -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 1:02:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

What’s wrong with the Ki-43-Ib Oscar, some players call it a dog. But packaged with a good pilot I can see nothing wrong with it. Also in comparison with Allied fighters of the same period it seems ok. About the only problem I can see is that it is maybe under gunned for taking on Allied bombers. It also appears that the Japanese pilot’s only complaint about it, was that it was less maneuverable than the Ki-27 Nate. Official USAAF analysis stated that it was a dangerous opponent.[:'(]



Light as a feather, and horribly weak armament. Otherwise a good plane



Terminus -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 1:16:03 PM)

The Oscar's only flaws were insufficient firepower and structural integrity. Other than that, a good plane.



AW1Steve -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 2:28:00 PM)

Compared with the Nate, it's great! Compared with the Corsair or Mustang, not so good. I'd put it in the same class as a P-36, Buffalo, or P-39. Be very carefull against B-17's and other 4 engine bombers. You might consider using it as an escort , rather than cap , if heavies are around.



Mike Solli -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 2:49:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Compared with the Nate, it's great! Compared with the Corsair or Mustang, not so good. I'd put it in the same class as a P-36, Buffalo, or P-39. Be very carefull against B-17's and other 4 engine bombers. You might consider using it as an escort , rather than cap , if heavies are around.


Very true, but until the Tony and Tojo come out, what else does the IJAAF have?



AW1Steve -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 3:02:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Compared with the Nate, it's great! Compared with the Corsair or Mustang, not so good. I'd put it in the same class as a P-36, Buffalo, or P-39. Be very carefull against B-17's and other 4 engine bombers. You might consider using it as an escort , rather than cap , if heavies are around.


Very true, but until the Tony and Tojo come out, what else does the IJAAF have?

Not much , that's why I like to mix IJN and IJAAF units , to use each others strongpoints to nuetralize the weak points. No reason Zero's or Claudes can't do cap while Oscars do escorts for nells, betties and sally's. I suppose , that some people might think it gamey, the INJ and IJA working together. [8|]



Mike Solli -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 3:57:05 PM)

I do much the same thing, Steve.  Unfortunately, I usually can't spare many Zero Daitai because there aren't many and there are too many missions for them.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 4:11:38 PM)

Nates and Oscars serve very well as TF escorts. The game doesnt take type of plane into consideration when it looks at numbers of CAP over a TF when it decides to attack or not so you can usually "cover" low value TFs with these to good effect.

They are also useful in backwater areas attacking enemy ground troops. In other words, training for the day when they get that shiney new Tojo.



AW1Steve -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 4:13:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I do much the same thing, Steve.  Unfortunately, I usually can't spare many Zero Daitai because there aren't many and there are too many missions for them.


I tend to keep the older models on my CV's due to range , which means that my newer models become shore based CAP's. Claudes don't do badly against bombers , only fighters. A mix of a smaller group of Zero's, (9) with a larger group of claudes can be very effective for CAP.


Don't worry Bobo, I shan't be using these tactics against you as I have no Claudes or Oscars in the scenario. [:D]



Mike Solli -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 4:15:05 PM)

I pull my Claudes from the frontline as quickly as I can.  Why use a Claude when you can use the superior Zero with the Zero bonus?



AW1Steve -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 4:18:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I pull my Claudes from the frontline as quickly as I can.  Why use a Claude when you can use the superior Zero with the Zero bonus?

As you said, numbers. You should replace the claudes if you can, but always keep a healthy reserve, a very healthy reserve , for you CV squadrons. One accidental scrape could leave you hurting for long legged zeros. [8|]



engineer -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 4:51:53 PM)

The Oscar does fine for the first few months of the game.  The problems really start if Oscar formations start tangling with B-17's, Hurricanes, P-40s or Wildcats.  The Japanese player wants to get his IJA pilots into Tojo's and Tony's as quick as possible and the Allied player wants to engage anything other than a Zero at first and anything at all after the Zero bonus disappears in order to attrit the good initial pilots and overwhelm the Japanese training pipeline.  It's the old "Quantity has a quality all it's own" argument. 



niceguy2005 -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 4:59:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Oscar's only flaws were insufficient firepower and structural integrity. Other than that, a good plane.

So what your saying is easy to shoot down and no fire power (ie. can't shoot down others), but otherwise its a great plane. [:D]

In game terms I found the Oscar to be a horrible plane. I lost many a good pilot to P-40s. Having it to do over again I would rush research and production of the Tojo as a replacement.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 5:03:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I do much the same thing, Steve.  Unfortunately, I usually can't spare many Zero Daitai because there aren't many and there are too many missions for them.

I agree Zero Daitai are in short supply. Early in the war though, I think it could be manageable. I would send Oscars to Philipines, DEI, North Pac and China, and mix them in in Malaya, while keeping the Zero Daitai at the tip of the spear with a few as garrison in Cent Pac, and otherwise lead the charge into South Pac and Burma.

I get all Nate units to the rear or upgraded ASAP. I hate Nates, totally worthless plane.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 5:03:33 PM)

Well a lot of this argument is based on PDUs on of course. With PDUs off, you pretty much have no choice. The Oscar is your plane.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 5:05:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I pull my Claudes from the frontline as quickly as I can.  Why use a Claude when you can use the superior Zero with the Zero bonus?

I agree, if I have Zeros I would upgrade immediately. But I'd rather use a Claude unit than I Nate unit for just about any mission. It probably has more to do with pilot quality, but Claude units do better.



Q-Ball -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 5:48:42 PM)

You will count the days until the first Tojo or Tony rolls off the line.

I would invest in some R&D on those, they make a big difference. Either one is fine, but for production reasons I prefer Tojo, but that's just me.

As everyone says, love her or hate her, Oscar is your plane until then.

NOTE: Nate is fine for training in China, so not completely worthless. If you haven't already though, TURN OFF/convert your Nate factories! You start with way more than you will ever want to use.
PS: Same for IDA, and a few other crappy models.

PPS: As to official US Army analysis, the consensus here seems to be that the Hayabusa was more effective IRL than in WITP. We're talking WITP.



Panther Bait -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 6:41:36 PM)

In WitP, next time I would definitely keep the Oscars and Nates away from Burma.  I tried to use my Oscars, and all I seem to do was increase the experience of the AVG even higher than it already was.  They are killing me now even with Tonies/Tojos because my pilots are only around 65-70 exp.

Since it is a BigB PDU off game, now I have to hope that the Oscar II is some kind of an improvement if I want to take advantage of the remaining Nate/Oscar I squadrons.  At least it has a little armor and a little better armament, but I don't have high hopes it will make much difference against P-40Es.



Shark7 -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/11/2008 6:58:51 PM)

There are three main problems with the Oscar:

1) It has poor armament
2) It has poor armor
3) No self-sealing fuel tanks

Combine 2 and 3 together and you end up with a lot of slowly dissapating fireballs at 15000 feet.

The Oscar just can not stand up to the heavier allied fighters.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 5:57:00 AM)

Actually the Oscar was one of the best 1 on 1 dogfighters in the world at the time. Its problem was in a many on many fight whoever the Oscar was shooting at had time to get help to get them off his tail.



jeffs -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 6:02:47 AM)

How much does PDU off slow down the Oscar in Tojo/Tony moves.

Am playing a campaign game as the allies with PDU off and clearly it reams me in so many ways.
But what does it do to the Japanese upgrade situation?

Thanks.  A bit off topic I know.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 6:07:35 AM)

PDUs off, there really arent that many Tojo / Tony groups. Maybe 2 dozen if I recall correctly before the Frank comes out.



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 6:14:00 AM)

Aerial combat can be represented by a number of physics equations, most commonly

S = k ln w

Whereby the entropy is exponentially magnified by the number of possible microstates.

Essentially, the with a greater number of aircraft, the number of attack positions is exponentially increased.
The fundamental result is a larger number of aircraft engaging other aircraft in the most probable (and therefore most disorganized) circumstances. Eventually, all aircraft will have opportunities to fire upon another airplane and therefore
be fired upon themselves.

In a highly thermodynamic aerial battle, it is essential to have the capability of destroying the target in the least possible time and secondly to sustain the maximum possible damage while being acquired onself.

These principles were self-evident during the first world war, where aircraft such as the SPAD 13 were capable of achieving assymetric attrition ratios in battles of 50+ aircraft.

The advantages of maneouver are reduced on an exponential scale as the number of aircraft per volume of airspace is increased. Over time, the successful ratios are resultant in the air superiority of a region as the number of enemy pilots and airplane numbers are attrited (see Guadalacanal campaign, where no significant battles were won by the allies, however the enemy was worn down to a point of impotence).

In terms of kill probabilties, the P-47 Thunderbolt could be considered an effective platform, with the saturation of firepower (4800 rounds per minute; greater than many gatling cannons) and heavy armour protection that are vital for a successful prolonged aerial campaign.



jeffs -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 6:25:49 AM)

Thanks Yamato Hugger.

PDU off really cuts down what the allies can do..Especially since many of the army planes need
the P-40E and we only get 40 a month...

Nice to know Japan gets bottlenecked as well.

To Stormwolf
(see Guadalacanal campaign, where no significant battles were won by the allies, however the enemy was worn down to a point of impotence).

By significant battles, do you mean naval, air or land? One can clearly point to land and naval battles that the allies one and their were many days where the allies did much better in the air than Japan.



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 6:49:29 AM)

Greetings,

"their were many days where the allies did much better in the air than Japan."

This is precisely the point that is being demonstrated. Over many days, as the indecisive battles had accumulated,
the tide of machines and pilot experience could be overcome as result of the greater survivability and
lethal effect of the F4F Wildcats, causing the eventual attrition of enemy units.

Precicely by suffering constant disproportionate combats over the course of many days, the enemy was reduced to a position where carrier based units were needed to fill the ranks of the axis units.

A wildcat that is damaged can be salvaged for parts, and the pilot transfered to another machine.
An axis plane that is damaged will in all probabilty dissintegrate, causing the loss of pilot and machine.

These effects are facilitated as the molarity of combatants is increased.



jeffs -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 7:24:12 AM)

Ok. Now I see what you mean.
Agreed.

Given the situation, a 1 to 1 fight at Guadalcanal was hugely in the US favor given
A. many US pilots survived.
B. few IJN pilots survived
C. IJN replacements were much less experienced.

Even if US pilots were killed, their replacements were usually superior to IJN replacement pilots.



John 3rd -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 7:27:11 AM)

I will use the Oscar for offensive operations through the conquest of the DEI and in China.  After about April of 1942 I try to pull them off the mainline so I can upgrade them to Tojo/Tony quickly while they still have excellent experience.  For me the key is to try to stay out of ANY long-term aerial battle (say Burma for example) until those fighters come online.




Miller -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 2:37:28 PM)

Well in my current game Oscars enjoyed a 33:0 kill ratio over Buffalos in a recent turn......I think pilot exp is critical, although the mod we are using gives them such a high mvr rating they are almost impossible to hit[:@]



Shark7 -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 3:01:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I will use the Oscar for offensive operations through the conquest of the DEI and in China.  After about April of 1942 I try to pull them off the mainline so I can upgrade them to Tojo/Tony quickly while they still have excellent experience.  For me the key is to try to stay out of ANY long-term aerial battle (say Burma for example) until those fighters come online.




Exactly, in my PBEM I'm basically using the Oscars in 1 mass group 1 day, then pulling them off the line for a few weeks just to try and nip at my opponants 2E bombers in Burma. Anything more than 2-3 days on the line and they start taking unacceptable losses. Not to mention the fact that for some reason their morale goes into the toilet after 1 mission. I'm guessing its the number of bombers they face affecting it.



John 3rd -> RE: Is theKi-43-Ib Oscar a dog? (12/12/2008 3:45:31 PM)

Miller--I agree that in Brian's Mod the Oscar is a bit more useful then Stock.

Concur with Shark's view on his use of them.  I won't move them immediately though.  IF they are doing well and not taking heavy losses then that is fine but the moment Spitfires or Wildcats show up then they can quietly move away while waiting for those nice shiny new fighters in late-1942...




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