Time for a next generation CC..maybe (Full Version)

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bartholimew -> Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 3:50:44 AM)

I think the success of bringing back 8-10 year old games and generating viable sales shows there is unwaivering interest in the close combat series. I played them all and this one.

How about a Nex Gen close combat game, with new graphics, larger maps, more detailed sprites and a new engine. But with the same aspect, same tradition, same scale as the close combat series. Its not a question of aint broke dont fix it. Its just technology has come along way in 10 years and I would like to see close combat look a little more improved and play better with a fresh AI approach.

-larger maps
-higher bit per pixel graphics
-more motion: water, wind, dust.
-sprite aspects could include a slight isometric parallax enabling more detail without affecting physics
-same for some objects



Nomada_Firefox -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 4:02:39 AM)

Continue dreaming.[8|] Yes CC games are old but do you know other game like CC with better graphics? the answer is not.



oliver.h -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 11:01:17 AM)

I dream of concatenating all tatical maps together into a huge one, to eliminate the rectangle boundary limit across different tatical maps.



pelle75 -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 12:53:52 PM)

Wishlist in the unlikely case of a future rewrite of the engine:

1. Linux support (and add MacOS and some other platforms while at it)
2. CC2 ABTF-style campaign mode
3. 3D-rendering (but still simple top-down 2D graphics)



Nomada_Firefox -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 3:45:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oliver.h

I dream of concatenating all tatical maps together into a huge one, to eliminate the rectangle boundary limit across different tatical maps.

I think that there is not hardware computer for this.[:'(]

quote:

Wishlist in the unlikely case of a future rewrite of the engine:

Good question, who will rewrite it?[8|]

People please, I do not know when you discovered the CC games but I have been playing them on net for 9 years and for four years or more we had not more new good CC games, for many time all the CC community thought on the end from this games and now we have the WAR and WAR engine is present and future on CC games and I would like to wait it for many time. By it Strategy 3 has my full support if they want continue making CC games with this engine because this option is better than other options.

And to be realistic, with 3D graphic, you will not see many mods because people would need better and more expensive tools. And mods would be more difficult.



Perturabo -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 5:48:09 PM)

CCMTII, plz?



bartholimew -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 10:23:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomada_Firefox

quote:

ORIGINAL: oliver.h

I dream of concatenating all tatical maps together into a huge one, to eliminate the rectangle boundary limit across different tatical maps.

I think that there is not hardware computer for this.[:'(]

quote:

Wishlist in the unlikely case of a future rewrite of the engine:

Good question, who will rewrite it?[8|]

People please, I do not know when you discovered the CC games but I have been playing them on net for 9 years and for four years or more we had not more new good CC games, for many time all the CC community thought on the end from this games and now we have the WAR and WAR engine is present and future on CC games and I would like to wait it for many time. By it Strategy 3 has my full support if they want continue making CC games with this engine because this option is better than other options.

And to be realistic, with 3D graphic, you will not see many mods because people would need better and more expensive tools. And mods would be more difficult.


If the WAR engine is the future of CC games forever then it will end. There is plenty of talent out there waiting to be hired for development of a new project and there is a market for it.
I'm just trying to be innovative knowing once CC2 is re-released there will be nothing left. Anything else is just a mod. I don't want a full 3D game either because that is not CC, and its already being done by battlefront. I have nothing against 3D but its another genre.





Nomada_Firefox -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/12/2008 11:07:01 PM)

quote:

There is plenty of talent out there waiting to be hired for development of a new project and there is a market for it.

If it is easy and there are a plenty of talent on the world, please tell me why is there only one company making one game as CC? why did nobody make it?



TheReal_Pak40 -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/13/2008 3:56:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomada_Firefox

quote:

There is plenty of talent out there waiting to be hired for development of a new project and there is a market for it.

If it is easy and there are a plenty of talent on the world, please tell me why is there only one company making one game as CC? why did nobody make it?



He never said it was easy, just that there are plenty of good game designers out there. But, the problem is that there are not any producers willing to fork out the resources to develop another 2D WWII game. They probably don't see any profit in it, especially if they can't console it. Matrix Games can make some money off of the CC series because it's not a total rewrite. Add some new maps, tweek the stategy layer and battle groups, some minor AI tweeks, and adjust some game data values. Relatively simple compared to designing a game from scratch.



Nomada_Firefox -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/13/2008 4:31:26 PM)

I agree but by the moment I would like to think on the present and on the immediate future. If I´m not wrong, Strategy 3 first should to make one new CC5 and one new CC2, next they will can to think on a new proyect. I think that they have a clear mind and they do not need our comments about how and what will be the next CC games. By the moment they have made a good job, we have the dream from all modders, one game 100% easy mod.

I tell it because I´m tired from all the speculation about the new CC, more when probably they have designed it many time ago.



Maxy -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/14/2008 12:33:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomada_Firefox

I agree but by the moment I would like to think on the present and on the immediate future. If I´m not wrong, Strategy 3 first should to make one new CC5 and one new CC2, next they will can to think on a new proyect. I think that they have a clear mind and they do not need our comments about how and what will be the next CC games. By the moment they have made a good job, we have the dream from all modders, one game 100% easy mod.

I tell it because I´m tired from all the speculation about the new CC, more when probably they have designed it many time ago.


You're always talking about mods. How about the people, such as me, who are not interested in mods? I don't care if the game is a dream for modders.. I wan't the game to be good as it is.

You seem to have an opinion for every thread in this forum. Usually your responds are negative ones.

I don't agree with you about developers not wanting our comments or opinions - on the contrary. We are the ones who pay for these games, we are the ones who decide if the game is good enough to be purchased and we are the ones whose comments should matter the most.

I would like to see a new 3d engine behind CC. I would like to see buildings being destroyed like in Soldiers or COH. I would like to have a tool for seeing LOS easily and so on.. There's a lot of things that I would like to see. Still, I understand that it's not realistic to ask for such changes. There is just not enough market for these kinds of games.. It's just easier and more tempting to make a Starcraft 8, GTA XII or Red Alert 7.

Anyway- WaR is good. I'm waiting for patches to fix the BG disbanding problems.



Nomada_Firefox -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/14/2008 3:33:55 PM)

quote:

You're always talking about mods. How about the people, such as me, who are not interested in mods? I don't care if the game is a dream for modders.. I wan't the game to be good as it is.

Sorry but I´m sure that Strategy 3 will not make one game that we can not mod, people like mods, if you do not like them, good for you but many people play CC games because they can play them with mods, it is a old true from always on community.
quote:

You seem to have an opinion for every thread in this forum. Usually your responds are negative ones.

It is a free forum and I can answer, if you do not like my answers, it is not my problem. If you see, I joined the forum 8 years ago and I only made 141 post, I do not answer on all the threads. ;)

I and many old CC gamers do not want to see one 3D game for CC games. As I told you on other threads I saw very near GICombat and I saw Squad Assault. On this moment I like CC games as they are, a good 2D game. Yes it has some troubles but I´m sure that they will resolve them.

Probably Andrew Williams and his team will not respond about it but I can give my opinion about their thoughst, it is a free democracy.

PD: Youself are making one negative post.[:'(]



Perturabo -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/14/2008 6:05:02 PM)

I agree with you. 2D is better for CC.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Maxy

I would like to see buildings being destroyed like in Soldiers or COH.

The only thing that stops CC buildings from being completely destroyable is that they don't take damage from "blast rating". Right now a 1000lb bomb damages only the element which is affected by kill rating. If elements could take damage from blast rating, heavy HE shells and bombs would quickly turn buildings into rubble.



Southernland -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/14/2008 6:17:25 PM)

when it comes right down to it I'd prefer to see the AI gameplay improved over graphics.  Even with everything considered there will still be greater numbers of players or potential players playing off-line than h2h.  A revamped AI is crucial to any new model CC



Fred98 -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 4:54:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bartholimew

-larger maps




But, have you tried bigger maps? Close Combat Modern Tactic's maps are up to 5 times the size of some traditional maps.

You need to have 2 or more players per side otherwise the maps are just too large to play.
-






Andrew Williams -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 5:45:51 AM)

What about playing a 5 day operation on that one big map?

A huge (relatively) operational area without artificial constraints such as map edges etc.


You pla it with phase lines...
1. take the river crossing
2. take Hill 116
3. clear the village

etc etc

All the time watching your flanks and rear.


There is a mod cor CoI/CCIII that let's you play the big maps.



Perturabo -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 7:19:53 AM)

Interesting idea. How would it look in practice?
Would it feature reinforcements, multiple AIs, etc?



Moss Orleni -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 10:27:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

What about playing a 5 day operation on that one big map?

A huge (relatively) operational area without artificial constraints such as map edges etc.

There is a mod cor CoI/CCIII that let's you play the big maps.



Problem is that the maximum number of teams (15) is currently not scalable to those larger areas. IMO, many battles would end up in wild goose chases, where it is nearly impossible to control ground because of the scarcity of units.
Even if increasing the number of teams would be more difficult to control, it could at least be made optional to set the maximum number of teams to higher values than the current 15.

But larger maps is definitely the way to go for future CC...

Cheers,
Moss



pelle75 -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 2:53:20 PM)

Actually the reason I would like a 3D engine is that I want to be able to make mods. With the current 2D engine you have to be an expert 2D graphics artist to make a map anyone would like to play. With a 3D engine you only need to place 3D objects and modify the landscape (see for instance the scenario editor included in Bungie's Myth 2 RTS, or that included with the Combat Mission games) and it will look just as good or bad as the maps provided with the game (as long as you have all the models you need for buildings etc).

But also note I listed that as number 3 on my wishlist. I'm fine with 2D, but a little sad that it stops me from making mods (or if I did no one would play them because they would look too bad).

I have been playing CC to and from since about the time the CC2 demo was released. I read a lot about the first game, long before it was even named Close Combat ("Beyond Squad Leader", anyone?) but for some reason managed to stay away until the second game arrived.



pelle75 -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 2:58:31 PM)

I don't care about bigger maps. I think the game works best with quite small maps that have no or very few tanks. If the tank AI is improved I guess the tanks will be less annoying, but I still think the mechanics of the game work best for infantry combat, and I would be perfectly happy to buy a future game containing only or mostly infantry. Dividing operations into several small battle maps is a good abstraction. Bring back the campaign system of CC2 and I would be very happy.



Nomada_Firefox -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 5:21:40 PM)

Yes I agree, a game named Close Combat should not have only large maps. I like WAR because it has some medium/large maps and many small, I see it good for all our opinions. CC5 had only large maps and it was a bad idea with only 15 teams.



Andrew Williams -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 6:48:38 PM)

A mixture of map sizes is my preference.

it makes you deal with  a wider range of tactical situations.



Nomada_Firefox -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/15/2008 10:46:11 PM)

Yes I agree, it is the best for maps.



Moss Orleni -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/16/2008 8:58:09 AM)

I disagree... to me it's like playing football and only using 5 square meters of the field. Sure, you can focus on dribbling action, but there's much more scope in the game than that [:)]

Larger maps to me are effectively the linked smaller maps that many people want to see. No more need for entry VLs. You can always play with the size and location of the deployment zones (the Combat Mission series uses a similar system). But at least you have a continuous and logically connected battlefield.

That means of course that you should also be able to play with more than 15 teams. Personally, I don't see much difference in handling 15, 25 or whatever number of teams. I play exclusively H2H, and I really don't see people perform better if they have 5 units instead of 15. Even now, with 15 teams, you focus on one piece of the battle at a time...
The current team order system (defend, ambush, etc) is already well suited to handle more teams. Athough you might make a case for introducing definable arcs of Infantry/AT defense, in order to introduce more flexibility in the standing orders; again see Combat mission (no I don't own stock of Battlefront [:)], but I think that CM introduced some very good ideas that can be applied to CC as well).

And if the AI is not capable of performing on a bigger map, well, then IMO the issue is with the AI, not with the map size. But to me, getting a competitive AI is something like the Holy Grail of gaming: many tried to find it, nobody has really succeeded (that is, without cheating or sacrificing realism).

Cheers,
Moss



berndn -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/16/2008 10:20:36 AM)

A next generation CC. With the given things which are missing I would prefer to have all kinds of maps. Small to big. It all depends o the original battle ground. As well have correct heights implemented. If a hill was 30 meters and the ground was 5 meters so be it. We have the problem that this will be not be visuell due to the fact that we only have a 2D view from above.
To help it would be nice to have a small graph showing the relief. So still everthing 2D.
But the next generation CC should have an AI which don't need the silly recruit vs veteran setting which will adjust the available forcepools and use instead historic correct forcepools.
It would be great to have adjusted team numbers. Depending on the map size. If it's a big map maybe bigger ones.

Just some ideas :)



Stwa -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/19/2008 6:04:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

What about playing a 5 day operation on that one big map?

A huge (relatively) operational area without artificial constraints such as map edges etc.


You pla it with phase lines...
1. take the river crossing
2. take Hill 116
3. clear the village

etc etc

All the time watching your flanks and rear.


There is a mod cor CoI/CCIII that let's you play the big maps.




Yes, this sounds good. It would be like a campaign, right?



pelle75 -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/19/2008 9:35:58 AM)

An operation/campaign on one big map, it seems to me for realism you would spend a lot more time walking and/or resting, and very little time actually fighting battles. Many hours would be wasted just staring at soldiers sleeping and patroling waiting for the next battle to start. You would also need new features to handle reinforcements and transporting infantry in vehicles and resupply during battles.



Andrew Williams -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/19/2008 9:38:57 AM)

Sounds like war doesn't it?



pelle75 -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/19/2008 9:41:27 AM)

Sounds like war (I guess, not that I've been close to one for real), but I'm just not sure it sounds like fun. :)



Stwa -> RE: Time for a next generation CC..maybe (12/19/2008 10:08:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pellen

An operation/campaign on one big map, it seems to me for realism you would spend a lot more time walking and/or resting, and very little time actually fighting battles. Many hours would be wasted just staring at soldiers sleeping and patroling waiting for the next battle to start. You would also need new features to handle reinforcements and transporting infantry in vehicles and resupply during battles.



Most people that get involved with these games enjoy the shooting and explosions the most. So if there is no shooting or explosions during the game, then the game can become boring. Also, most people like the action condensed down into a few minutes. They really don't want it protracted out over time, especially if there is no shooting or explosions.

Also, me thinks, most people wouldn't even play H2H if only the AI could produce a good rousing game. As I mentioned, the goal is shooting and explosions, and sometimes the AI does not cooperate in condensing this down into an acceptable timeframe for the human. If it did, then H2H play would become obsolete.



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