Tanker issue (Full Version)

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sandy61 -> Tanker issue (12/14/2008 2:34:37 AM)

I have an intermittent problem with air refueling in a few of the EC2003 Battle for the IOPG Battleset scenarios. In some of the scenarios, when I launch a ferry mission to move aircraft from Bangkok or Diego Garcia, the tankers will immediately refuel the group upon takeoff defeating the whole purpose of the tanker since this will leave the aircraft without enough fuel to get to the base they are going to. I have played a couple of the scenarios a couple of times and the problem doesn’t always appear. The game is patched to .044 and the scenarios in question are 4, 5, & 7. There may be more scenarios or battlesets with the problem but I haven’t run across any others. Any ideas?



TonyE -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 3:49:13 AM)

A workaround is to launch the tankers separately from the Ferry group and manually join them later (i.e. you send the ferry planes on a LR patrol instead of a Ferry) and tank.  Then tell the tanked planes to land at the appropriate airfield.

In the interest of actually fixing the problem.  If you are willing, please list the exact steps to recreate the situation in one of those scenario.
example:
with group AAa selected, click Launch
 select Ferry
select ADa as the destination
 add a KC-10
add 4 x F-15C with Intercept loadout
 click launch
you should see tanking happen after only 3 game minutes

Also let us know what database version you are running (it shows towards the lower-right of your screen and says something like HCDB-081124)

Many thanks in advance.



Warhorse64 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 3:50:36 AM)

I remember having that problem in the last scenario of the IOPG battleset, too. I got into the habit of launching the tankers as a separate group, and setting up a rendezvous when the ferrying planes were almost empty. It was more of a hassle, but it was also the only way to get really extended range by tanking, since otherwise at best the receiving planes tend to refuel just before hitting bing, versus just before hitting empty.



Maromak -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 6:23:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Warhorse64

I remember having that problem in the last scenario of the IOPG battleset, too. I got into the habit of launching the tankers as a separate group, and setting up a rendezvous when the ferrying planes were almost empty. It was more of a hassle, but it was also the only way to get really extended range by tanking, since otherwise at best the receiving planes tend to refuel just before hitting bing, versus just before hitting empty.


Just to clarify how you are doing this - are you judging when the a/c are empty (zero fuel) by using the 'total range' ring vice the 'bingo range' ring? I am sure I have seen something like this listed in a few wish lists i.e. have the total % fuel remaining listed along with % fuel remaining til bingo.

Thanks



CV32 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 12:48:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maromak
Just to clarify how you are doing this - are you judging when the a/c are empty (zero fuel) by using the 'total range' ring vice the 'bingo range' ring? I am sure I have seen something like this listed in a few wish lists i.e. have the total % fuel remaining listed along with % fuel remaining til bingo. Thanks


The tankers are refueling the other aircraft immediately because it is obvious, as soon as they take off from Bangkok, that they lack the fuel to make the whole trip. The tanker immediately attempts to remedy this, of course, but since the receiving aircraft cannot take on enough 'new' fuel to make a difference, the effort is to no avail.

So, I always use the 'tanker rendezvous' points when playing this particular scenario, specifically two (or three) points along the path between Bangkok and Diego (usually one in the vicinity of Banda Aceh and the other(s) further along out in the middle of nowhere in the IO). You'll need to have multiple tankers servicing this rendezvous points at all times.

I also change the loadouts of all my short ranged aircraft to the 'Ferry' configuration, in order to maximize their range. You can judge where to place the tanker rendezvous points by having a look at the receiving aircrafts' own range. I suggest you try it first with a small group of aircraft who have a pretty respectable ferry range, and see if they can make it to Diego. Remember to use small groups to maximize the amount of fuel they each receive.

Its a bit of a tedious process, but that's the nature of the beast. I happen to enjoy the logistical challenges in scenarios, so this one is right up my alley. [:)]



Warhorse64 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 6:36:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maromak
Just to clarify how you are doing this - are you judging when the a/c are empty (zero fuel) by using the 'total range' ring vice the 'bingo range' ring? I am sure I have seen something like this listed in a few wish lists i.e. have the total % fuel remaining listed along with % fuel remaining til bingo.

Thanks



That's right, I use the 'Total Range' ring. For further details, see CV32, above.



sandy61 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 6:44:12 PM)

Thanks for all the comments and support, I have used the workaround (launching the tankers first and then launch a patrol to meet the tankers) most of the time, however, launching the tankers with a ferry mission works part time, sometime the tankers wait, sometime they refuel immediately. The problem is a hit or miss thing.

TonyE, here is what I have done this morning; I used the 5.0 scenario for the example. Upon game start, I first went to the Bangkok airbase and changed the loadouts on all the F-16’s to ferry. After the F-16’s were ready, I launched the 12 F-16C/D Blk 30/32 and the 3 KC-135R aircraft (leaving the Blk 50’s for later) from Aca to Adb. This first ferry mission worked out just fine, the F-16’s were refueled around halfway to Diego Garcia and the tankers separated and I returned them to Bangkok to ready them for the next ferry mission. When the tankers were ready, I launched the 6 F-16C/D Blk 50/52 and the 3 KC-135R’s from Aca to Adb again. This time, the tankers refueled the F-16’s upon takeoff leaving them unable to get to Diego Garcia since they now don’t have the fuel range. Any idea why this happens? The database version number is HCDB-080616. Let me know if I can provide any further assistance. I have also seen the problem arise ferrying from Diego Garcia to the bases in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia so the problem isn't only Bangkok.

I have not noticed this in any other databases, however, with all the scenarios available, it would take one person quite a while to get through them all looking for this type of problem.

By the way, what about producing a WW2 version of Harpoon, or better yet, including WW2 equipment into the database so we could make our own scenarios (e.g. The USS Nimitz vs. the whole Japanese navy AKA the movie Final Countdown). I think that that would be a way to get quite a few more wargamers to play Harpoon.

I have been an avid Harpoon player since my Amiga days back in 1988. It only keeps getting better!



CV32 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 7:07:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: T6Simtek
This time, the tankers refueled the F-16’s upon takeoff leaving them unable to get to Diego Garcia since they now don’t have the fuel range. Any idea why this happens?


I don't know why it would be happening only some of the time, unless the aircraft being refueled are of different types and thus different ranges. (It sounds like you were using all Block 50/52 F-16s?)

quote:

The database version number is HCDB-080616. Let me know if I can provide any further assistance ... I have not noticed this in any other databases, however, with all the scenarios available, it would take one person quite a while to get through them all looking for this type of problem.


While I always recommend you update to the latest available database, the database version wouldn't be an issue here.

quote:

I have also seen the problem arise ferrying from Diego Garcia to the bases in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia so the problem isn't only Bangkok.


Yeah, pretty certain it has nothing to do with Bangkok.[:D] The long range is part of the issue, which explains why you see it again on the leg from Diego to the Gulf.

quote:

By the way, what about producing a WW2 version of Harpoon, or better yet, including WW2 equipment into the database so we could make our own scenarios (e.g. The USS Nimitz vs. the whole Japanese navy AKA the movie Final Countdown). I think that that would be a way to get quite a few more wargamers to play Harpoon.


Some (major) elements of WWII warfare don't translate well into HCE, unfortunately. For example, surface gunnery. The code is optimised for the missile age. There are a couple of WWII databases available, both from HarpGamer, but they're very much works in progress.

quote:

I have been an avid Harpoon player since my Amiga days back in 1988. It only keeps getting better!


That's the thing about Harpoon. True die hards will probably play this game, well, until they die. [:D]



sandy61 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 7:33:40 PM)

CV32, the Bangkok airbase has 12 F-16 Blk 30/32 and 6 F-16 Blk 50/52 aircraft at the start of the scenario. I launched them in 2 separate ferry missions, the Blk 30/32 in the first and the Blk 50/52 in the second. I did not mix the types together (e.g. 6 Blk 30’s and 3 Blk 50’s). Only the Blk 50’s refueled immediately upon takeoff, also note that the ferry range is identical for both types, one would think that the ferry mission with 12 would be the one to refuel upon takeoff, not the mission with 6. Since there are only 3 tankers available there, I choose to launch the Blk 30’s first with the tankers and after the tankers returned to Bangkok and were ready again, I launched them with the 6 Blk 50’s.

Thanks on the WW2 info, just a wish of mine, also, the older versions of Harpoon had no air-refueling capability so it’s nice to have it now.

Where do I get the new updated databases from (links?)?



TonyE -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 9:13:00 PM)

Problem verified.

The F-16s are looking to be tanked before the Tankers are in the air so it appears there is no fuel to receive. As a result the later refueling event is all messed up. Interesting problem, thanks for the directions.




sandy61 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 9:16:43 PM)

Yes I updated to 2008.044 about a month or so ago (per e-mail from Matrix). I also have been testing some more, the Blk 50 F-16's have been consistently refueling upon takeoff whereas the Blk 30 F-16's refuel properly.



CV32 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 9:26:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: T6Simtek
Where do I get the new updated databases from (links?)?


The updated database is only available from HarpGamer.



sandy61 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 9:42:53 PM)

Thanks CV32



TonyE -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 10:04:51 PM)

Problem will be fixed in the next patch.  Depending upon takeoff order and a number of other almost random things sometimes the planes were attempting to refuel before they completed taking off.  That didn't result in too good of a situation!

HCE - 2008.065
==============
- Chg:0000 GE  Planes will no longer attempt to immediately refuel upon takeoff
               (really they were trying to refuel before they had completed
                taking off, now they do their first refuel check when the
                whole group is airborn)  Thanks T6Simtek
                http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1978409



sandy61 -> RE: Tanker issue (12/14/2008 10:59:11 PM)

TonyE - Thanks for working on your weekend to fix this.



TonyE -> RE: Tanker issue (12/15/2008 1:47:39 AM)

no problem.  Harpoon is just a hobby for us and I happen to be stuck at work waiting for long processes to complete so that means some Harpoon time [sm=tank2-39.gif]. 



Maromak -> RE: Tanker issue (12/15/2008 8:10:07 AM)

Thanks also!



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