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Reiryc -> (5/6/2002 4:16:33 PM)
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"I am not overly concerned that RTS and FPS gamers sort of out number us turn based dudes."
Probably you're not concerned because you don't program turn based wargames for a living...as the people at Matrix have pointed out again and again, this isn't a big sale area. This isn't just a hobby, its a business too. Those people that making a living at this should, for their own best financial well being, be concerned about the number who play turn based vs rts/fps.
"Eventually the glitz will reach a point where it can no longer be improved upon. As it goes I hear the phrase "such and such game is incredible, it uses such and such game's engine" Half the time the games like like the last game only the characters are wearing different clothes."
Nah...most thought turn based wargames would be gone with the advent of the computer. Having the artificial means with which to eliminate a needed solution for board games(turns and hexes) didn't stop the joy some get from turn based games. Turn based games will probably never go away and neither will rts and fps games.
"What usually keeps me from being interested in RTS or FPS games is the sameness of the environment."
Yeah, playing HPS panzer campaigns series sure does make me feel like there is a new environment each game....or Talonsofts battleground series, campaign series etc. I could see how you would only see a sameness in rts/fps. *smirk*
"Now true, some of our turn based games can look a little similar to each other. But I am not overly worried about the sameness there. I could care less if the games ever get around to looking different. But that glitz is what drives the RTS and FPS market. Once they run out of novelty, essentially the hobby will fizzle for lack of anything to offer."
LOL... I love this, "some of our turn based games can look a little similar"... You have the gift of understatement when trying to make your argument tailored to your side ;) Well I hate to break it to ya, but the wargaming market, especially the turn based market is smaller now than ever before. On the other hand, rts/fps market continues to grow.... Now I prefer wargames to any other type of game out there, but just because I do, I won't obstinantly stick my head in the sand believing that things are just fine and "those other guys" will lose interest in their genre while "me and my wargameguys" will keep trucking along just fine.
"If wargame graphics for turn based games never ever progress further I could care less. The sounds do not need to become any more than they are now. "
Yes yes...most wargamers prefer substance over looks...however the maker of the wargame also likes having a sizable market with which to sell to. Without some of the nicer things like graphics and sounds that can help increase sales, you may find yourself without enough wargaming companies around to produce games for your (and my) favorite genre.
"I just want to drive tanks around, command troops, use artillery and basically play Advanced Squad Leader on a computer.
Anything more than something that looks like ASL, is just a waste of energy to me."
Hehe...good stuff... I picture a guy complaining about all those new fangled cars on the road saying, "I just want to ride in my carriage being pulled by bessy and matilda...all these automobiles are just a waste of time." I've noticed most of the grognard types in the wargaming community are like this. They resist change for one reason or another. I think it has something to do with the makeup of the type of person that plays wargames in the first place...stubborn, unchanging, resistant to new things. I need to bring my wife around these parts so she can see I'm really not that bad =)
"The problem with rivers is precicely why we wargamers have a private laugh at those that think they make the map ugly."
I think they make the map look ugly...but I also don't like the effects they artificially impose when a computer could and imho should resolve those issues due to its computing power. Hexes are a needed item for board games...it provides a structure so that 2 players can play in a structured environment. With a computer, this is no longer needed.
"This is not even worth talking about to some extent. I am not looking for pretty I am looking for accurate to game mechanic. I don't need to fight on a topographical map."
Yes arent we all. I think those that prefer a non-hex map can see that an accurate game mechanic can be provided with detail reflecting what is actually being played upon. We use CRT's, hexes, impulses etc etc to simulate some type of mechanic. I think its fully reasonable and something that should be sought out is a game mechanic that can address a rive costline accurately. When I'm placing a squad on the river edge in sand, I want the men in the sand to be affected differently than the men standing behind the brush hugging along that sand. In a hex game, we can't get such differentiation. Something like this is a game mechanic that should be utilized more as opposed to less.
"When the river follows the hex side I know categorically where it is. I don't want vague or a lack of clarity. "
With a hex system it's a vague representation of whats being shown on the map. If there were no hex systems then where a man/squad stands is the type of clearly visible terrain he is in. You will, without a shadow of a doubt know that squad/man is standing in the river or on a side of the river.
"But the river is still confined to the hex. It is a river hex, or it is not. It either flows to the next hex or it does not. "
I can just imagine this being discussed in a real life situation..."So sargeant, are you in the river hex or arent you?"
"To just draw an artsy map forgets why we turn based wargamers play turn based games. We want accuracy and we want it crystal clear."
Then you shouldn't want to play on hex based games. Hex based games are not accurate by any stretch. They take an area of land and attribute that area to the entire hex area. Your river hex is a classic example....if it were an "artsy" map without hexes then if a man had one foot in the water and one foot in the dry sand next to it, it would be represented as such. That's accuracy and it's crystal clear.
"Where the river is, in an RTS game is not relevant in the same way it is in a turn based game. In RTS your units are not constrain to turn based limitations of function. They wander as they will and there is NO turn. "
You're kidding right? It's not about turn its about time to cross a river ie: like number of moves to cross a river hex side. It's about the terrain effects of where that man/squad is standing with his/their feet.
"I realise the distinction might escape a lot of computer gamers. I highly doubt and gamers over 30 though will have this trouble. As we will have all played board games with hexes and understand why a hex is a hex is a hex."
Funny, I've noticed those of us over 30 have just the opposite effect in our perception of hexes. A hex was used only to handle the problems of what players can do by limiting their movements of game pieces in a hypothetical time period. They were designed due to problems of how to move pieces with limitations. A computer can solve these limitations by having movement speeds reflected "on the go" as the piece moves/draws fire/ etc etc. It seems that the over 30 crowd that I am a part of has attached itself to a familiar system and forgotten why it was developed in the first place.
"But hexes. It's a waste of energy to design a game without hexes. What's the game benefit. There is no benefit."
Haha...well aside from increasing the accuracy (which most wargamers want) I guess there is no benefit. ;)
"I want to do it in a gaming environment that is accurate first, and pretty, well pretty is of no importance to a good strategic challenge."
What is accurate about hexes? I don't recall reading any descriptions of hexes being used during say, WW2. Was this some form of advanced japanese infantry tactic I'm unaware of? Did the combatants take turns maneurving over the field of battle in hexes? Did units only confine themselves into areas that a hex represents? Is this what you would call accurate?
"When I am planning my river crossing I am not thinking, hmmm the river Bug was it really that shape exactly? I could care less to some extent. As long as it's impact on the region is accurate."
No, like most turn based wargamers you're probably counting the number of hexes too and how many movement points necessary to cross. With a non-hexed map, you'd be much more concerned with the strategic value of where the river Bug is widest, where there are fjords, where the river is the narrowest, etc. Because you'd be playing on a map system that reflects a good gaming principle, wsiwyg (what you see is what you get).
In squad based combat games, the closer we get to real time: 1 second in game = 1 second real life, and real terrain, 1 inch in game = 1 inch in real life, the better and more realistic the game will be. Joe is right on imho with doing away with hexes as the standard of "accurate" should be based not on hex map systems but on wysiwyg maps...
Reiryc
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