quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

ah..The British proved their combat abilety (or lack of) in Afrika over and over aigan...  Rommel tied down huge number of britts with a small German and large incompetent Italien force...
The Britts also proved their poor combat abilety in Norway, were 3500 Germans held off 20 000+ of British and French at Narvik, untill they Germans managed a land line to it...
Not untill they had huge numbers and American help in Afrika did they have offencive sucsess.  
At Monte Casino a small German Paratroper Force held off huge numbers of British and American troops for ages, and at the Gustaf Line as well.
In france they also proved their lack of combat abiletys in 44 during Market Garden.

The reason to why they could not strike the RN at Dunkirk was ofcourse due to the RAF... but if the RAD got destroyed the RN would been destroyed in its ports.

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My tuppence worth for what its worth

Could the Luftwaffe have forced figther command out of south of England - YES
Could the Luftwaffe have destroyed the RAF - NO (Unless Dowding makes a catastrophic error)
Could they have landed 2 - 3 Divs (minus heavy equipment) and a couple of Para Divs in SE England - MAYBE IF THEY GOT LUCKY AND ACHIEVED SUPRISE
Could they have kept them supplied and landed heavy equipment in face of RN and RAF retaliation - ALMOST NO CHANCE IMO BUT OTHERS MAY DISAGREE
Did they have the shipping to sustain the supplies even if they managed to keep some afloat - NO

The British Deployments below the Thames in Summer of 40 had major ports covered by 3rd, 4th and 50th Divs (being brought up to strength quickly - 3rd was in good shape the others less so but they were in defence mode in and around major ports almost no mobility other than by foot but they were their and dug in)

1st London and 2 or 3 other Territorial Divs were on the coast as well in less critical areas as they had not been in Frnace they had some heavy equipment left - not TOE and obsolete - hated Hotckiss MG's rather than Brens but still MG's, 18 Pounders rather than 25 Pounders but still Arty, very few AT Guns but its unlikely they will be facing armour, 3" AA Guns rather than modern 3.7" but still AA guns - the British Army may have been denuded of MODERN equipment but it was not defenceless.

In reserve below the Thames in Corps reserve the rebuilding 1st Armoured (some tanks and A/C not many even in July 40) and the Australian Bde Gp and NZ Bde Group neither of which were in France

North of the Thames - 1st Can Div was concentrated and about 3 or 4 other Divs in various states of rebuilding and recovery

I agree 99.99% ! [;)]


But what do you exactly think under "Could the Luftwaffe have destroyed the RAF - NO (Unless Dowding makes a catastrophic error)"?

What is destruction of the RAF? Fighter Command? Bomber Command?


IMHO the RAF would be very very seriously hit if Germans had attacked just a few factories: Rolls Royce Merlin, Hurricane and Spitfire!

There were just a few of those factories, extremely vulnerable and all were in range of German bombers which had necessary equipement, accuracy and could attack at night when nothing RAF had could have stopped them!


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: turkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My tuppence worth for what its worth

Could the Luftwaffe have forced figther command out of south of England - YES
Could the Luftwaffe have destroyed the RAF - NO (Unless Dowding makes a catastrophic error)
Could they have landed 2 - 3 Divs (minus heavy equipment) and a couple of Para Divs in SE England - MAYBE IF THEY GOT LUCKY AND ACHIEVED SUPRISE
Could they have kept them supplied and landed heavy equipment in face of RN and RAF retaliation - ALMOST NO CHANCE IMO BUT OTHERS MAY DISAGREE
Did they have the shipping to sustain the supplies even if they managed to keep some afloat - NO

The British Deployments below the Thames in Summer of 40 had major ports covered by 3rd, 4th and 50th Divs (being brought up to strength quickly - 3rd was in good shape the others less so but they were in defence mode in and around major ports almost no mobility other than by foot but they were their and dug in)

1st London and 2 or 3 other Territorial Divs were on the coast as well in less critical areas as they had not been in Frnace they had some heavy equipment left - not TOE and obsolete - hated Hotckiss MG's rather than Brens but still MG's, 18 Pounders rather than 25 Pounders but still Arty, very few AT Guns but its unlikely they will be facing armour, 3" AA Guns rather than modern 3.7" but still AA guns - the British Army may have been denuded of MODERN equipment but it was not defenceless.

In reserve below the Thames in Corps reserve the rebuilding 1st Armoured (some tanks and A/C not many even in July 40) and the Australian Bde Gp and NZ Bde Group neither of which were in France

North of the Thames - 1st Can Div was concentrated and about 3 or 4 other Divs in various states of rebuilding and recovery

I agree 99.99% ! [;)]


But what do you exactly think under "Could the Luftwaffe have destroyed the RAF - NO (Unless Dowding makes a catastrophic error)"?

What is destruction of the RAF? Fighter Command? Bomber Command?


IMHO the RAF would be very very seriously hit if Germans had attacked just a few factories: Rolls Royce Merlin, Hurricane and Spitfire!

There were just a few of those factories, extremely vulnerable and all were in range of German bombers which had necessary equipement, accuracy and could attack at night when nothing RAF had could have stopped them!

The probem was that the Nazis didn't have the equipment to launch daylight raids over the industrial areas of the UK. With the exception of the Supermarine factory at Southampton and I think some Hawker production at Brooklands, the fighter and the engine plants were for the most part out of range of the Me 109. The RAF war diary for Sept 27th 1940 outlines the Lufwaffe's problems in an attack on the Brisol engine plant at Filton (near the city of Bristol) with the following summary:

"At 1120 hours two formations consisting of about 25 bombers escorted by 45 Me110s and some Me109s, crossed the coast near Swanage and flew to Filton. At Frome, [edit - about 30 m iles short of the target] the Me109s turned back. Eight Squadrons were despatched to meet the attack, one of which intercepted and dispersed the enemy formations before they reached the Bristol Aeroplane Co's Works, but Filton RAF Station was attacked from 11,000 feet. Formations were also intercepted on their return journey."

As for the Supermarine plant and the factories they could reach, my family is from near Southampton and my grand parents recalled the raids (towards the end of the BoB my grandfather was responsible for turning on lights at a decoy airfield to draw German night attacks). During a raid the employees would go into shelters and once it was over would come out,"tidy up" (their words) and get back to work. As the allies found later in the war it is very hard to destroy machine tools with bombing. Production at Supermarine was never stopped.

Also worth mentioning that by Aug 1941 Merlin production had started in Detroit at the Packard car plant and Hurricanes were being produced by Hawker in Canada and of course the port of entry for these war materials - Liverpool was out of the range of the Me109.

There were no simple answers for the Nazis. Invading or even suppressing the UK (and the British Empire and Commonwealth) would have been a very tricky job.

The RAF diary of the BoB http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/ is worth a read to get an idea of how inefferctive even daylight bombing was at this point in the war. A "large formation" might only get half a dozen bombs on an airfield, let alone an individual factory in a built up area and the idea of hitting an individual factory at night is just not on. The massed British bomber raids (1000 Lancasters etc) toward the end of the war couldn't hit pinpoint targets at night despite Pathfinders and radar guidance. Thats one of the reasons they opted for area bombing. Even the US 8th Airforce dayight raids, despite all the courage and horrendous losses, could not shut down critical Nazi war industries for more than a few days, if at all cf Schweinfurt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Idea was tested, say it again, RN operated in the Channel for days during Dunkirk Evacuation, whilst the Luftwaffe was specifically tasked to stop them. Goering had promised Hitler, but they still failed."

I think that this is the most relevant post: Goering had promised that the Luftwaffe would stop the evacuation and it failed miserably when it had all the advantages.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

I was suggesting massive NIGHT attacks!

All British factories were in range of German bombers and night attacks negated the need for fighter escort (i.e. limited Me-109 range).

Also the Germans possesed very good navigation / bombing equipement already installed in all bombers (plus some special equipement for one "pathfinder" bombre group) and all crews were night certified as integral part of their training.


Let me explain (copy & paste of my post on page 2 of this thread):

Use the Kampfgruppe 100 to be a "pathfinder" and then use all available other bombers to bomb at night the few British Rolls Royce engine factories and few Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft factories!

The Kampfgruppe 100 possesed both "X-Gerät" and "Knickebein" and was accurate to 100m (this was more than enough).

All other Luftwaffe bombers had "Knickebein" for basic navigation and could then use the initial attack of Kampfgruppe 100.

The RAF had NOTHING to stop Germans at night!


Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

I was suggesting massive NIGHT attacks!

All British factories were in range of German bombers and night attacks negated the need for fighter escort (i.e. limited Me-109 range).

Also the Germans possesed very good navigation / bombing equipement already installed in all bombers (plus some special equipement for one "pathfinder" bombre group) and all crews were night certified as integral part of their training.


Let me explain (copy & paste of my post on page 2 of this thread):

Use the Kampfgruppe 100 to be a "pathfinder" and then use all available other bombers to bomb at night the few British Rolls Royce engine factories and few Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft factories!

The Kampfgruppe 100 possesed both "X-Gerät" and "Knickebein" and was accurate to 100m (this was more than enough).

All other Luftwaffe bombers had "Knickebein" for basic navigation and could then use the initial attack of Kampfgruppe 100.

The RAF had NOTHING to stop Germans at night!

Night attacks, especially early in the war, were lucky to hit the same county, let alone the right city. Hitting a factory at night was not feasible. The RAF bomber offensive was trying to hit the worker's homes, not the factories.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

My technical publications are at the office so I can't quote them, but the operations research studies of the matter indicate that night bombing--by both sides--was ineffective against point targets--even factory-sized.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

The British had countermeasures in place for Knickebein in time for the Battle of Britain. X-Geraet wasn't operational until November. The Coventry attack was a success, but countermeasures were able to block the other two Moonlight Sonata attacks.

Knickebein had an effective range of 300 miles and depended on a long baseline (Cleves to Jutland) to get that much accuracy. We find ourselves working with related issues all the time in our robotics work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

ah..The British proved their combat abilety (or lack of) in Afrika over and over aigan...  Rommel tied down huge number of britts with a small German and large incompetent Italien force...
The Britts also proved their poor combat abilety in Norway, were 3500 Germans held off 20 000+ of British and French at Narvik, untill they Germans managed a land line to it...
Not untill they had huge numbers and American help in Afrika did they have offencive sucsess.  
At Monte Casino a small German Paratroper Force held off huge numbers of British and American troops for ages, and at the Gustaf Line as well.
In france they also proved their lack of combat abiletys in 44 during Market Garden.

The reason to why they could not strike the RN at Dunkirk was ofcourse due to the RAF... but if the RAD got destroyed the RN would been destroyed in its ports.

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

the German performed better than what you could expect against the odds they faced, but when I read your posts I wonder how they could lose the war and why I´m now not owing 15 square kilometers of land somewhere in the Ukraine nowadays...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

Personally I think the main reason to why Germany lost the war is due to the fact that they declared war on the USA.
Would it not been better to declare war on Japan for attacking the US... and to give all its political support to the USA, something who would made it nearly impossible for the US to declare war on Germany... The US population would simply not accepted it.

Also Germany did not Gear up its Industry for war until 1943. So, instead of converting the majority of its industry they still produced huge quantities of unnecessary consumer goods until 1943. Some 65% of the German Industry did things not necessary to support the population nor the war effort until 1943 that is. Germany had access to the resources to have it do war production, but did not do it anyway.

Future more, they got a completely incompetent ledership when Hitler put himself in charge of the OKW.

When you look at the number odds German troops in the field was facing, they did things they them self did not think was possible, like the invasion of France, and the huge distance they covered in Soviet on just a few months.
Remember that the German Logistic system was basikly Trains and Hourses!


Based on the Book of Albert Spear, here is a few things Germany could done better:

Germany wasted resources in a very bad way, In Chezkoslovakia they destroyed some 120 000 Trucks for no reason, and in France they destroyed 244 000 Trucks. This in total 360 000 Trucks could been used to support its Industrial Sector or to Supplie Frontline Units, but for no reason they were just destroyed. (PS: they could been supplied with spare parts as Germany had access to the production facilities, blueprints and Evan the workers who made the trucks in the first plase).

The German's could also trained the Italien Army up to its own standard, instead of sending that expedition to China to train Chinese divisions.. As they needed the Tungsten they maby had to do it, but at least they could have done both.
With the Italien army equipped and trained to German standards, and integrated with German forces (like Mussolini surgested) they would had a far larger superior fighting mashie. And aigen, no Industrial challenges as they had more or less not gered up for war, so alot of Industry available for the job. The Resources could be collected from Nationalist Spain, Nationalist China, Romania, Sweden, and the Oil by investing in Synthetic Oil plants in 1937 as surgested instead of in 1942.

They should also invaded Nationalist Spain, then secured Gibraltar.
They should also invaded Turkey and then secured Iraq, Persia and Suez. With a Land Connection via Turkey to the Front there would not been supplie problems like it was in Egypt who was requiring a sea convoy route to Benghazi, Tripoli or Tobruk.

Germany would won vs any Commonwealth force in the field, if they had fought on equal terns, like if both armys had been in supplie and equal number. Germany would Evan won with smaller numbers due to the German doctrines, tactics, equipment, combat ledership, and superior training and experience.

So, with a Land line to Suez and Gibraltar the Mediterranean would be cut-off. And the process of collecting and transporting the Oil from Iraq and Persia via Turkey to Romania for processing could begin.

The Mounten Chain between Turkey and Soviet would guarantee that Soviet union would been unable to penetrate a defense on the Turkish side, and large German formations could guarded the Border to Soviet in the event Soviet would declared war for whatever reason.

In Nationalist Spain there were huge quantity of individuals who would joined Germany, several with years of combat experience from the Spanish civil war from 36-39.

Germany could then started to make a "Meuganot line" type border to Soviet Union for future security of the Reich.

Thinks Albert Spear anyways.. but i assume he was wrong as most of you here is more quallefied then him to anwser the question..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

ah..The British proved their combat abilety (or lack of) in Afrika over and over aigan...  Rommel tied down huge number of britts with a small German and large incompetent Italien force...
The Britts also proved their poor combat abilety in Norway, were 3500 Germans held off 20 000+ of British and French at Narvik, untill they Germans managed a land line to it...
Not untill they had huge numbers and American help in Afrika did they have offencive sucsess.  
At Monte Casino a small German Paratroper Force held off huge numbers of British and American troops for ages, and at the Gustaf Line as well.
In france they also proved their lack of combat abiletys in 44 during Market Garden.

The reason to why they could not strike the RN at Dunkirk was ofcourse due to the RAF... but if the RAD got destroyed the RN would been destroyed in its ports.

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, if you feel you really have to troll use a spellchecker...


EDIT: I'm beginning to suspect you are deliberatly spelling things wrong. [&:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

ah..The British proved their combat abilety (or lack of) in Afrika over and over aigan...  Rommel tied down huge number of britts with a small German and large incompetent Italien force...
The Britts also proved their poor combat abilety in Norway, were 3500 Germans held off 20 000+ of British and French at Narvik, untill they Germans managed a land line to it...
Not untill they had huge numbers and American help in Afrika did they have offencive sucsess.  
At Monte Casino a small German Paratroper Force held off huge numbers of British and American troops for ages, and at the Gustaf Line as well.
In france they also proved their lack of combat abiletys in 44 during Market Garden.

The reason to why they could not strike the RN at Dunkirk was ofcourse due to the RAF... but if the RAD got destroyed the RN would been destroyed in its ports.

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, if you feel you really have to troll use a spellchecker...


EDIT: I'm beginning to suspect you are deliberatly spelling things wrong. [&:]

Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

quote:

ORIGINAL: borner
Now, if Germany had not made the very silly choice to hit London just when the airfields were starting to feel the effects of repeated strikes, what would have happened. Did the Germans have the strength to hit aircraft factories, shore installations, airfileds, and pound the RN by this time of the campaig?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

Ah, my friend, immature, 9 year old, neo nazi, poseurs have a special place in this world of ours.

If you don't green button them, as you and I do, they do provide a certain amount of comic relief.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

Ah, my friend, immature, 9 year old, neo nazi, poseurs have a special place in this world of ours.

If you don't green button them, as you and I do, they do provide a certain amount of comic relief.

Well, Terminus, Dixie and JWE
I don't understand why you have to become so rude and insulting.
Based on Caster Troys post I understand one of you had gotten banned earlier for this type of behavior.

Regardless, the forum is as I understand a please for debate and discussion, and there will always be individuals who disagree on several subjects, and it is suppose to be.. after all its a forum were discussing takes please.

Some of you three have called me everything from a Pathetic Troll to now a 9 year old Neo Natzi, I still do not understand what i have done to you. Can you not handle to not always have right, or that others may have other perspectives on things.

If you can not disagree in a subject without calling people things then I think you should ask yourself who the 9 year old is.

I have jet not called any of you for anything, but still you ceep doing so.
So please stop with the repetitive insulting behavior and stay freindly instead, there is no reason for this types of behavior.
Its a forum, people must be able to disagree in different subjects without beeing called for names or deliberetly insulted by other users. I think it is important to note that some of you are forum moderators, and still you behave this way.

So, please behave like Gentlemen.