Mines (Full Version)

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Charles2222 -> Mines (5/3/2002 8:34:05 PM)

I hope this is addressed in CL, but I've done some pretty conclusive study of mines in my mosr recent SPWAW game.

I'm stuck with this dilemma. I'm in '40 france, with a combined force of German/Finnish/Japanese, etc., etc., Axis all-stars sort of thing. Now, I have units with quite a lot of experience and they're not spotting minefields, and I'm talking after being in ONE PLACE for 15 turns or more (no suppression, let alone not being spotted by eneemy units). It seems with some of these mine hexes, that the only way they'll be spotted is to run your largest tank over the hex and cause an explosion. Notice, I'm talking spotting units as recon infantry, infantry, cavalry, engineers, and engineer tanks. There are simplpy hexes which take far too laong to spot the mine, even with the unit(s) parked right next door. I'm not saying every hex is like this, far from it, but there are enough to ruin assault scenarios, which often enough only gove you 20 turns in the first place.

Consider my dilemma. I see a row of mine hexes. I know that a hex here and there are really mined, they're just not showing up. I send units to start clearing the seen mines, and though being there in some cases as long as 15 turns, adjacently, they still don't spot a hex as mined, when I'm 100% sure it is. Even sending a unit into the hex and having it sit there frequently achieves no spotting, and they can't start clearing until they spot. This is quite irritating, particularly since it seems the AI is more keen on more extensive minefields (maybe it's just that narrower maps have deeper minefields). BTW, I do the spin-dancing to detect mines, and it usually doesn't help, especially since I'm not talking spotting mines from a distance, but adjacently, or even in the hex.

In any case, for CL at least, this is my request. I would like some special ability for my units, where they can do concentrated "searches", IOW, they will pin all their effort on searching the hex they're in or the one they're pointed at, perhaps to the detriment of searching elsewhere. The deal is, if I KNOW there's a hex with mines in it, whether the men can spot the mines is immaterial, because I want them to clear a certain hex, and they shouldn't have to see anything to start combing that hex's area. Maybe these special searches would use half the unit's fire orders too? Maybe the better idea would be just to give mine-clearing units a special command to enable them to treat a hex as though it's mined, and therefore start clearing (if there are any) upon the use of that command.

Comments? Do you like sitting there knowing a hex has mines in it, and yet even putting mine-clearing units in the hex continues with the mines being unspotted, therefore unable to be cleared?

Thanks. I thought if I cannot get this problem resolved, particularly in CL, I'll just buy the cheapest untis I can, maybe 10 Kubelwagons, and just have them run top speed over the unspotted known minefield hex, hoping for a detonation. I'm tired of losing tanks because you figure with one or more mine-clearing units in and around the hex, for 15 or more turns, they surely should've 'spotted' them by then, and then, sure enough, destroyed PZIVD.



Svennemir -> (5/3/2002 8:58:00 PM)

Strange.

I think the mine spotting checks are made at end/beginning of turns, so spinning units won't help.

But if you want to spot mines without detonating them, move Engineers or Mineclear tanks into the hex in which mines are suspected. I think there's a VERY small chance the engineer unit will detonate a mine and AFAIK they will always detect the minefield when moving into it. Then it's not a problem at all - if you suspect a minefield, move engr. stuff into the hex and watch them clean up.

I've never had a mineclear tank destroyed from moving into a minefield, but moving on from there is risky.



Larry Holt -> (5/3/2002 8:58:19 PM)

If you don't spot a mined hex try moving away then back up. It seems that you only get a spotting check once, when you first move up to the minefield. You can also try moving your engineers into the hex in question. Heavy artillery also makes a dandy mine locator.



Charles2222 -> (5/3/2002 10:17:50 PM)

Svennemir: While I used to think that it was true that an engineer moved into a hex will ALWAYS spot the mines right away (assuming they only moved one hex), I'm quite sure I've seen contradiction to that in this battle I'm fighting, but I'll keep it in mind. Even so, it seems more profitable to me that you should be able to tell a unit to commence mine-clearing for hexes it can normally clear for, despite the mines having not been spotted, in which of course their dedicated mine-clearing via a special command would turn up the sighting of the mines when the first was cleared.

Larry Holt: I have incorporated bombardment, almost exclusively of the direct variety to accomplish such. I had one hex I must've put at least 50rds of 75L24 into (I use it to hasten the clearing with troops already there, assuming none are in the hex, since direct fire from a lower calibre won't scatter, whereas the 150mm SIG33 gun will), and the mines remain. I hesitate to believe the AI would've put more than 10 mines in the hex.

Given my strategy, I don't believe in using bombardment for mine spotting. The recon, engineers, and infantry spot well enough. My problem is the invisible minefield. Given that ordinary means (apart from the possibility of getting an engineer in each suspected hex, assuming that works) those unspotted known minefields should be revealed, such that I suspect bombardment wouldn't necessarily reveal them any better. I so depend on my foot units to spot and clear these things, that throwing bombardment in to spot the odd super-hidden mined hex would be suicidal. Almost as bad as running that PZIVD through it just to get it over with. Particularly when there's a bit of fighting going on, and your men are in the midst of an extensive mine belt, the last thing you want is to start bombarding to try and nail that invisible minefield that you've now figured five turns or more of attempted spotting just isn't cutting it. In any case, assuming we're talking a period where there's a little fighting going on, I can depend on the enemy giving me enough bombardment to do my spotting, but in the situation described, I've yet to find enemy barrages that spot unknown minefields. Yes, I've seen it spot unkown fields, but not in the situation where my men should've already sniffed it out long before. It always seems like barrages are revealing hexes which are beyond being adjacent to any of my mine-clearers. Still, it does seem silly to throw barrages into a hex, because you know it has mines that just won't show up, when you could've just ordered the men to consider the hex mined and to work diligently on clearing them.



john g -> (5/4/2002 10:54:42 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]I hesitate to believe the AI would've put more than 10 mines in the hex.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Bad assumption, I just ran a test, 5000 pt defending ai force that I bought 2000 points of mines for. I let the ai deploy the defenders then I changed the ai to human and looked at the deployement. An almost continuous line of 50 mines per hex all across the map. with mines up to 4 hexes deep near the victory hexes. Nasty field. If you don't want to be clearing mines until the end of the battle, keep your point values low, the less the ai has to spend, the less it can lay. Just be glad the ai doesn't throw in dt as well, it really slows down an assault if vehicles have to wait for them to get cleared as well.
thanks, John.



Charles2222 -> (5/4/2002 5:30:21 PM)

john g: Good point and thanks for the experiment. At the beginning of your response I was just going to say that you would expect weird things from such a force size, but while the AI may not be willing to spend 40% of it's force on mines, it does show, especially with a narrower map, that it is willing to put in more then 10 in a hex. It does make me wonder whether there's a spotting difference between minefields with varying levels of density.

Now, if only I can order units to prod for mines even though they haven't seen them yet............



Svennemir -> (5/4/2002 7:37:07 PM)

I would of course move an engr. squad into any suspected minefield I wanted to clear. If I were for some reason not able to do that I would use a sIG33 to blast the minefield as soon as you see it. It's accurate though I'm not quite sure it works every time. I've seen Katyushas "spot mines" pretty effectively though.

I can't see why spotting should be difficult then. Especially the engineers have an easy time in my experience.



Warhorse -> (5/5/2002 12:48:46 AM)

Sounds like we need a new unit..."sheep", heh, heh!!:D



Jasper -> Re: Mines (5/5/2002 3:11:37 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]I hope this is addressed in CL, but I've done some pretty conclusive study of mines in my mosr recent SPWAW game.

I'm stuck with this dilemma. I'm in '40 france, with a combined force of German/Finnish/Japanese, etc., etc., Axis all-stars sort of thing. Now, I have units with quite a lot of experience and they're not spotting minefields, and I'm talking after being in ONE PLACE for 15 turns or more (no suppression, let alone not being spotted by eneemy units). It seems with some of these mine hexes, that the only way they'll be spotted is to run your largest tank over the hex and cause an explosion. Notice, I'm talking spotting units as recon infantry, infantry, cavalry, engineers, and engineer tanks. There are simplpy hexes which take far too laong to spot the mine, even with the unit(s) parked right next door. I'm not saying every hex is like this, far from it, but there are enough to ruin assault scenarios, which often enough only gove you 20 turns in the first place.

Consider my dilemma. I see a row of mine hexes. I know that a hex here and there are really mined, they're just not showing up. I send units to start clearing the seen mines, and though being there in some cases as long as 15 turns, adjacently, they still don't spot a hex as mined, when I'm 100% sure it is. Even sending a unit into the hex and having it sit there frequently achieves no spotting, and they can't start clearing until they spot. This is quite irritating, particularly since it seems the AI is more keen on more extensive minefields (maybe it's just that narrower maps have deeper minefields). BTW, I do the spin-dancing to detect mines, and it usually doesn't help, especially since I'm not talking spotting mines from a distance, but adjacently, or even in the hex.

In any case, for CL at least, this is my request. I would like some special ability for my units, where they can do concentrated "searches", IOW, they will pin all their effort on searching the hex they're in or the one they're pointed at, perhaps to the detriment of searching elsewhere. The deal is, if I KNOW there's a hex with mines in it, whether the men can spot the mines is immaterial, because I want them to clear a certain hex, and they shouldn't have to see anything to start combing that hex's area. Maybe these special searches would use half the unit's fire orders too? Maybe the better idea would be just to give mine-clearing units a special command to enable them to treat a hex as though it's mined, and therefore start clearing (if there are any) upon the use of that command.

Comments? Do you like sitting there knowing a hex has mines in it, and yet even putting mine-clearing units in the hex continues with the mines being unspotted, therefore unable to be cleared?

Thanks. I thought if I cannot get this problem resolved, particularly in CL, I'll just buy the cheapest untis I can, maybe 10 Kubelwagons, and just have them run top speed over the unspotted known minefield hex, hoping for a detonation. I'm tired of losing tanks because you figure with one or more mine-clearing units in and around the hex, for 15 or more turns, they surely should've 'spotted' them by then, and then, sure enough, destroyed PZIVD. [/B][/QUOTE]


Pls download the mobipocket reader program and load it in ur palm else use the mobipcoket PC reader. and download the ebook from the link below
http://members01.chello.se/brickhouse/spwaw.html#sdt,

A very well written ebook with tons of quote....no wonder nobody come to forum anymore, there is tons of things there.



Charles2222 -> (5/5/2002 4:43:05 AM)

Jasper: Thanks for the link, I didn't know it existed, but then that may be because I'm not keen on reading books on the PC. I know the book doesn't tell me I can tell a unit to concentrate their mine-clearing or searching on one hex, but it might tell me for sure whether engineers ALWAYS spot mines if they're in the hex. Actually the basic manual covers a lot of things about mines and engineers, and yes, if I suspected engineers ALWAYS spot mines in their hexes, then I could've done a search on key words, but, even so, I do think it's a bit silly that if you have no engineers in the sector, then the invisible mines in the hexes in question remain that way and will continue to be a hedge because none of my guys choose to see them. If nothing else cutting all searching to the hex occupied and the one they're facing would alleviate this largely, though I prefer a command to tell the unit to clear mines for the hex they're in, for the non-engineers.

svennemir:
quote:

If I were for some reason not able to do that I would use a sIG33 to blast the minefield as soon as you see it. It's accurate though I'm not quite sure it works every time. I've seen Katyushas "spot mines" pretty effectively though.


I appreciate all the solutuons here, but they're all half-solutions at best. I'm asking that CL have a command for all mine-clearers to treat a hex as though it's mined. The point of the invisible minefield is that you already have a large amount of infantry and probably engineers, recon, etc. in the immediate area, elsewise you wouldn't know it was being stubborn by remaining invisible, so to speak. Barrages aren't what you want at a time like that. The SIG33 will kill your troops just as well as the mines. I've had tons of enemy barrages thrown into my troops, and the ratio of the "invisible" hex, the ones that just won't show up unless you drive a PZIVD into it (or engineers if they ALWAYS spot mines for the hex they're in, and I'm presuming they do) are practically useless in these difficult hidden mines (by difficult I mean there's been a logical spotting unit adjacent to the hex in question, completely without suppression, pointing at that hex [as if that helps] and it still being hidden for 10 turns or more). I'm sure not going to bombard my own troops just to see the same thing.

Part of the reasons I get myself into these infantry spotting mines are these two: A) The AI doesn't spot mines via artillery, so I will not either. B) Because given that I don't resupply artillery like mad (something else the AI does not do) I find it wasteful to locate minefields before my foot units get there via bombardment, mainly because I deliberately don't memorize where the AI basically places minefields, and even if I have something of an idea, my knowledge is largely nullified by virtue of insisting on not giving myself an advantage that the AI has not. Hmmmm, just thought about something..... If the tooth fairy or somebody were to put a new command out for foot units, my using that command would give me undue advantage over the AI unless the AI were programmed to use that themselves, which of course in the case of SPWAW it definitely would not (hoping CL will though). Oh well, that wouldn't be so bad an advantage for me, as the AI almost never lives to get to any minefields I might use (with definite exception of trying to play as the Soviets against the Finns).



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