Waw ver 35a béberts'way_ver 35c update (Full Version)

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bebert -> Waw ver 35a béberts'way_ver 35c update (1/20/2009 11:04:44 PM)

Edit: The 35c version - last version online- has a bug, if "screenshot" is selected, you can't open the scénario[&:] That seems to be correct if this option is not selected

Bug fix now. As soon I could, I will upload the new version.

édit: new version upload.

Some picture are now different, like Coastal artillery.







After some discuss with Eplorer about his own version of WaW, I decided to make some change from his version. I wwill post to morrow or tuesday the new version and precisely the list of change. But, main change concerns

Unit:
Tank destroyer and heavy tank didn't exist really at the beginning.

The heaviest brit tank was the mathilda, which was an support infantry tank, the same for the french B1bis or the soviet KV1. USA had no tanks, and the heaviest german tank was the earlier Panzer IV. So, you must have armor 2 and gun 2 to have heavy tank, because heavy tank like tiger I or later pershing were big tank with good gun. If you must have Flack II and gun II to have the german 88mm, you must have armor II to have some tiger with a 88mm gun.

Tank destroyer: It is the same, nonobody had found how build a tank destroyer before the war. Earlier TD were mainly tank hull with a good gun and some armor around, but without an armored turret. So, TD will be cheaper but weaker, less HP than before, and you must have gunII end armor II to have tank destroyer. There were no tank destroyer at the beginning of the war.

Truck are cheaper too

Halftrack too, and halftrack will have some combat value against rifle. But armor II is nessecary to have some halftrack.

Aircraft carrier are more expensive than before



No more bazooka at the beginning, this weapon didn't exist in 1939. But if you have basic and heavy infantry IV, you will have AT rifle, with the same charactéristic than bazooka IV.

Edit: A new Unit: the selfpropelled artillery, if you have armor3 and gun3: they have the same combat value than artillery III, but a tracked move. They are more expensive than artillery III, but less than artillery III and a halftrack. They are more HP than a HT:

[URL=http://www.casimages.com][img]http://nsa04.casimages.com/img/2009/01/29/090129091947922001.jpg[/img][/URL]

Some new pictures too [:)]

Ships

No more ship hull. But capital ships will be very expensive: 80000 to have a carrier, 40000 for a BB and 20000 for a CA. Another ships are the same cost than before.

Research

Research is more expensive. But research has now a new consequence: tank are more and more exepensive. I don't no why a panther will have the same cost than a earlier panzer IV or panzer III.

What do you think about that?

Edit:

So the list of change:

VERSION HISTORY
WaW v35c - Bebert's mod

Change based upon ver 34b explorer's tweaks


Units change

Ships:

There are no longer shiphull. Players can build directly capital ship. But they are very expensive: cruiser's cost is 20'000, battleship's cost is 40'000, carrier cost's is 80'000. The event concerning ship hull is removed.

Supply carry: ships, except cargo ships can carry suplly for 8 turn at 100% readiness, instead 16 turn before. But if readiness is lower than 100, be carefull, your ships will need go back in a port. It would be more difficult for Japan and USA to invade some island without take intermediate bases.

Submarine II, III and IV can carry supply enough to stay a long time in the sea.

Hide capacity of sub is improved. So, if they have not antisupply actictivity, they are often invisible. But they become visible (not a lot anyway) if they have antisupply activity.

Tanks: general change:

Cost of tanks are more and more expensive:

Light tankI: 2000
Light tank II: 2500
Light tank III: 3000
Light tank IV: 3500

medium tankI: 3000
medium tank II: 3500
medium tank III: 4000
medium tank IV: 4500

heavy tankI: 6000
heavy tank II: 6500
heavy tank III: 8000 (oops, ISII, Tiger II and US tank pershing were very exensive at all)

Tank destroyer and TD II: 2500
Tank destroyer III: 3000, cheaper than a light tank IV.

You must have gunII and armor II to have tank destroyer.
HP of TD are lesser than before:
TDI: 2000
TDII: 3750
TDIII: 7000

TD can hide a little, they are weaker than before, but cheaper too, it is a good way to have a strong anti tank defense in the city at well, less exepensive than build heavy tank.

You must have gun II and armor II to have heavy tank. So, combat and cost value of new HTI are the same than the elder HTII

You must have armor II to have halftrack, but halftrack have now a cost of 1500. They have some combat value against infantry, artillery and soft armor

Bazooka are removed from the game. Instead, if you have basic infantry IV and heavy infantry IV, you can have AT rifle, which is an amazing AT weapon (in fact almost the same than former bazooka IV). They can hide, they are cheap, so, be carefull when you move with big armor unit in a heavy forest or a city without scout or armored cars. So, you can have AT paratroops too, the same but you can paradrops them with normal paratroops or elite infantry (if you have some).

New units: selfpropelled artillery. You must have gunIII and armor III to have selfpropelled artillery I Same combat value than artillery III, but with tracked move and more HP than a halftrack, but less than a light tank. The cost is less expensive than a halftrack and an artillery. If you have gun IV, you will have selfpropelled artillery II



Aircraft's cost change:

Fighter: 4000
Carrier aircraft: 5000
Level Bomber and Dive Bomber: 5000

It will be more difficult to have airsupremacy, but aircraft are still amazing weapons against ground troops.

Research: Cost of research steps is higher than before for the second, third and the forth level. Now, it will cost a lot of PP to reach level 3 and level 4. Germany had basic infantry 2 at the begginning. I notice that it would be easy to have a high level in a lot of main tech (armor, fighters, basic and heavy infantery for germany, carriers and ship for Japan) in 1942, but that seems irrealist.

Now, you need 300 pp to reach a level III, and 450pp to reach a level IV. So, high level are "end of war level".

Cost of the action card " France prepared to war" is now 120 pp and "British commitement" is now 200. Allies must now make a choice: leave the France alone, or spend 320pp during the first ten or twelve turn. If allies does, they can probably not improve their research before may or june 1940. It is a choice.

Oob change:

Some hull are replaced by ships.

SU have more units at the beginning of the game, behind the front line, near Smolensk and Moscow.

German and french OOB are a little bit more historical, so french have some troops in the north of France, near benelux frontier, as they had in reality. They have a little more tank, and german too.

German Oob at the beginning is the historical oob just before Poland invasion.

French Oob is a partial historical Oob based upon the french oob in may 1940. They have less units than in may 1940, because french army was not complet in september 1939.

Name of units and HQ has changed. I hope more historical flavour.

France's troops experience at the beginning is 0, german is usually 50.

Brits have a small garrison at Malta Island, and a new part of the home fleet with DD and CA in the north of england.

Map change: mainly some light fortification at the german side of the Rhine (this was the siegfrid line), and some light fortification behind the dniepr, south of Smolensk, and near moscow.

There is now a coastal road beetween Casablanca and Cairo

Misc:

pp belongs to item group "non combat". So, lanscape that only produce "non combat item" will produce supply AND pp.

I recommand to play with Japan Bonus and chinese bonus, even in a PBEM. They don't have enough poduct capacity to make a good research. So, 10pp/turn will balance this fact.

AI is not very clever, but not to bad anyway. But, play german and japan against west and russian AI++ will be a good challenge. If you play allies against AI (or AI+ or AI++), don't select special rule. German IA (even IA++ with bonuses) cannot take Paris if they have not the readiness advontage from "western blitzkrieg" card.

I had download the scénario in the sandbox of the AT site. Files are too large in this forum.

http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=81




Barthheart -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/20/2009 11:35:57 PM)

Sounds like interesting changes.

For the bazooka.... in 1939 pretty much everyone had AT rifles. And against early tanks they were deadly.

So why not just rename Baz I to AT Rifle? Then it upgrades to Baz II.

I like that tanks will cost more for later models. Is this true for planes and ships as well?



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/21/2009 9:54:03 AM)

Well, at the beginning, AT weapons were mainly AT gun (the german 37 et 50mm pack, the french 47mm, the brit 3inch, and the very good soviet 76,2 mm ). But, it's true that rifle had some AT rifle, but I considere these AT rifle are included in the Rifle Combat Value against armor.

No, it is not true about plane and ships, the cost is the same..

With ships, we have a balancing problem beetween japan and US. Japan, even if they take south asia ressource, will not have big city port except Tokyo. They need 10 months to build a carrier at Tokyo, and it would be a hard way to have new carrier. So, I think they are enough expensive.

About plane, I don't now if later plane were a lot of more exepensive than earlier, except may be jet fighter at the end of the war. Anyway, the idea was to try balancing better germany power againts other powers. Beetween 1939 and mid 1941, germany can take easily french and benelux ressource, oslo and copenhague (with the blitz event), and norway's iron ore, and at least balkan ressource. So, they are very powerfull in 1941 and they can overwhelming SU quickly in 1942. But, if research and tank building are more and more exepensive, maybe it could be better and different.[:)]



Bombur -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/22/2009 12:32:47 AM)

That question on how a plane should cost is a very good one. From one side, advanced planes will be more complex to build, so they should cost more. From another POV, large scale production results in significant productivity gains, thus a decreased production cost.I see three ways to deal with this in a WaW scenario.
1-Planes of the same category will cost about the same (one effect compensates another)
2-You can increase productivity of a nation (by events or by cards) and increase the costs of more advanced aircraft. Trouble is that you must have different peoples for each nation to achieve this effect. This will decrease prices for all units accross the board, not only for aircraft, so you must plan carefully.
3-You can "research" productivity for each plane. You have the "B-17" which costs about 5000 points. If you research, say advanced machinetools I (for instance), you will have the "B-17", a different SF which is an exact copy of the former "B-17", but is linked to a different item, the "B-17", which costs only, say 4000 points. It´s time consuming, however, and won´t work for the AI (why in hell the AI will research an unit it already has????)

Btw, congratulations for your fix to ships.



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/22/2009 8:59:31 AM)

I am still testing the scen, but I notice that german AI is not too good, in fact, bad a lot.

There is another problem with aircraft, they are too powerfull in bombing against units in plain. Event with carrier aircraft, Japan kills a lot of chinese rifle and conscript. May be I have to  modify these value end test them.

I think I will create a small "scenario-sandbox" to test combat value of the different subformation. So, it is a lot of work.

Other thing, I have found in the net complete oob for the german and pol armies in 1939, and french army in may 1940. I will revise the oob of the war beginning in the west, with one subformation for one battalion. If we have a rifle division with three regiments, and one regiment with three battalions, a rifle division would have 9 rifle sub units. In an rifle army corps, we have usually two or three rifle division, so beetween 18 and 27 rifle subformation, with divisionnal element, like scouts, artillery and AT gun. If I assume that a unit in french, german and pol army is an army corps, so we will have about 20 or 25 rifle subformation, one AT gun, one infantry gun that would figure corps artillery, and one unit with army artillery. German had about 4 or five (I must check that) motorized corps, with panzer division and inf mot div. A panzer div had an scout battalion with armored car, two tank brigade with a lot of panzer II and a few panzer III and panzer IV, so, it would be 4 light tank and 1 tank médium, and a motorized rifle brigade: about 10 rifle unit 1 anti tank gun.

French army in the end of september 39 was a big army with a poor equipement, a low moral in some units, and a very poor staffing. They lose because chain command was not efficient and because they were totally surprised by the german op at Sedan. French had ten armies in the east and north-east of France, with two or three army-corps in each army, some medium tank like Somua S35 and B1Bis and light tank.

I will work about it, and I have to check what happens with a bigger german army and SU west garrisson.[:)]



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/23/2009 9:57:41 AM)

I am going to change the Oob, at corps level (army level for the SU), and name of unit will change.

The name of SU units will be "Army", the name of SU HQ will be "front", except for military district.

So, french units will have french name at the beginning, like "corps colonial", "corps de foreteress" or "Xème corps", but allies units generic's names will be "corps" and "army" for the HQ. Anyway, it is easy change name unit when you are playing. The name of pol units have changed to (like Lodz Army, Carpates Army and so on...)

French army is stronger than before at the beginning, but french units have 0 experience. They have some tanks, than they had in the reality, but they don't have a lot of HQ: GQG at paris, and two Army group HQ, but none Army HQ, with not a lot of staff.

German units will be "x.AK" like "Armee Korps", and german HQ will be "Heeres Gruppe X" or "x.AOK". German army is stronger than before, and they hav now one HQ for each army, one HQ for each army group, and still OKW at Berlin. It's a lot of units, more units than before, but less strong than former units. German needs more supply, so they cannot produce anything.

During the first winter war (1939/1940), german army need about 20'000 supply, even more if readiness is to low. So, attacking France during the first winter war will be risky. But, french army has the same problem, and a poor experince, so, they cannot make a hard attack against siegfrid line during the winter. So, it is "funny war" [:)]

I hope you will have more historic flavour with these changes.

I have change too the german units, they used 5 armies against poland, with four motorized corps which was real armoured corps.

My work is based upon that: http://niehorster.orbat.com/000_admin/000oob.htm

But we have a problem with air power:

I have this result with bombing french units in plain during winter 1940:

[URL=http://www.casimages.com][img]http://nsa04.casimages.com/img/2009/01/23/090123105324266460.jpg[/img][/URL]

Even if french troops were in the plain with, I think, a bad readiness, this result shows that airpower is to strong.

Necessarly, we have to modify combat value of dive bombers and fighters against rifle, or may be modify other things, like AA value of rifle.

But, fighters and dive bombers are to cheaps. In one month, you can have a lot of new planes with new pilots. Maybe the price should be more expensive.

Whta do you think about that?




explorer2 -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/23/2009 1:43:52 PM)

Bebert-
Nice work.  I used the same site to create more historical accuracy to the naval placements in my upcoming WaW mod.

Regarding air vs. land: this has been discussed on previous posts, thinking air is too strong, with opinions varying a fair amount.
I haven't found any actual data on the results of fighter/dive bombers attacks on infantry so I have no opinion that is informed, just conjecture.
One thing that I remember that discussion involved was the ratio of infantry killed vs. infantry retreated/readiness loss.  Again, I have no data to help, but it's a variable that does matter.

You probably already do this, but just in case, I suggest in your tests that you test the results with fresh units - both air and infantry and make sure you test with combat sim on, xp equal (probably at 30?) and full readiness and full AP.  I couldn't tell from the screen shots if you had done it that way.  You don't want variables like weather, supply, readiness, XP shaping the underlying values of the units.  Again, you probably are already doing this.

Keep up the good  work.



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/29/2009 8:06:19 PM)

Hi

I have uploaded a new version tonight (In France, it's the night now [;)])

Post your comment here if you find anything goes wrong [:)]



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/31/2009 10:33:40 AM)

Anybody have try this version? [:)]

I wonder if I will not put "political point" in the item group "non combat".

Actaully, "political point" are in the item group "infantry". So, landscape that cannot produce infantry cannot produce PP too, like iron ore in norway or some town in the USA. But it would be different if "pp" were in the item group "non combat" like supply.

What do you think about that?



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/31/2009 11:53:16 AM)

I will upload a new version (35c) this afternoon.

The list of change:


quote:

VERSION HISTORY
WaW v35c - Bebert's mod

Change based upon ver 34b explorer's tweaks


Units change

Ships:

There are no longer shiphull. Players can build directly capital ship. But they are very expensive: cruiser's cost is 20'000, battleship's cost is 40'000, carrier cost's is 80'000. The event concerning ship hull is removed.

Supply carry: ships, except cargo ships can carry suplly for 8 turn at 100% readiness, instead 16 turn before. But if readiness is lower than 100, be carefull, your ships will need go back in a port. It would be more difficult for Japan and USA to invade some island without take intermediate bases.

Submarine II, III and IV can carry supply enough to stay a long time in the sea.

Hide capacity of sub is improved. So, if they have not antisupply actictivity, they are often invisible. But they become visible (not a lot anyway) if they have antisupply activity.

Tanks: general change:

Cost of tanks are more and more expensive:

Light tankI: 2000
Light tank II: 2500
Light tank III: 3000
Light tank IV: 3500

medium tankI: 3000
medium tank II: 3500
medium tank III: 4000
medium tank IV: 4500

heavy tankI: 6000
heavy tank II: 6500
heavy tank III: 8000 (oops, ISII, Tiger II and US tank pershing were very exensive at all)

Tank destroyer and TD II: 2500
Tank destroyer III: 3000, cheaper than a light tank IV.

You must have gunII and armor II to have tank destroyer.
HP of TD are lesser than before:
TDI: 2000
TDII: 3750
TDIII: 7000

TD can hide a little, they are weaker than before, but cheaper too, it is a good way to have a strong anti tank defense in the city at well, less exepensive than build heavy tank.

You must have gun II and armor II to have heavy tank. So, combat and cost value of new HTI are the same than the elder HTII

You must have armor II to have halftrack, but halftrack have now a cost of 1500. They have some combat value against infantry, artillery and soft armor

Bazooka are removed from the game. Instead, if you have basic infantry IV and heavy infantry IV, you can have AT rifle, which is an amazing AT weapon (in fact almost the same than former bazooka IV). They can hide, they are cheap, so, be carefull when you move with big armor unit in a heavy forest or a city without scout or armored cars. So, you can have AT paratroops too, the same but you can paradrops them with normal paratroops or elite infantry (if you have some).

New units: selfpropelled artillery. You must have gunIII and armor III to have selfpropelled artillery I Same combat value than artillery III, but with tracked move and more HP than a halftrack, but less than a light tank. The cost is less expensive than a halftrack and an artillery. If you have gun IV, you will have selfpropelled artillery II



Aircraft's cost change:

Fighter: 4000
Carrier aircraft: 5000
Level Bomber and Dive Bomber: 5000

It will be more difficult to have airsupremacy, but aircraft are still amazing weapons against ground troops.

Research: Cost of research steps is higher than before for the second, third and the forth level. Now, it will cost a lot of PP to reach level 3 and level 4. Germany had basic infantry 2 at the begginning. I notice that it would be easy to have a high level in a lot of main tech (armor, fighters, basic and heavy infantery for germany, carriers and ship for Japan) in 1942, but that seems irrealist.

Now, you need 300 pp to reach a level III, and 450pp to reach a level IV. So, high level are "end of war level".

Cost of the action card " France prepared to war" is now 120 pp and "British commitement" is now 200. Allies must now make a choice: leave the France alone, or spend 320pp during the first ten or twelve turn. If allies does, they can probably not improve their research before may or june 1940. It is a choice.

Oob change:

Some hull are replaced by ships.

SU have more units at the beginning of the game, behind the front line, near Smolensk and Moscow.

German and french OOB are a little bit more historical, so french have some troops in the north of France, near benelux frontier, as they had in reality. They have a little more tank, and german too.

German Oob at the beginning is the historical oob just before Poland invasion.

French Oob is a partial historical Oob based upon the french oob in may 1940. They have less units than in may 1940, because french army was not complet in september 1939.

Name of units and HQ has changed. I hope more historical flavour.

France's troops experience at the beginning is 0, german is usually 50.

Brits have a small garrison at Malta Island, and a new part of the home fleet with DD and CA in the north of england.

Map change: mainly some light fortification at the german side of the Rhine (this was the siegfrid line), and some light fortification behind the dniepr, south of Smolensk, and near moscow.

There is now a coastal road beetween Casablanca and Cairo

Misc:

pp belongs to item group "non combat". So, lanscape that only produce "non combat item" will produce supply AND pp.

I recommand to play with Japan Bonus and chinese bonus, even in a PBEM. They don't have enough poduct capacity to make a good research. So, 10pp/turn will balance this fact.

AI is not very clever, but not to bad anyway. But, play german and japan against west and russian AI++ will be a good challenge. If you play allies against AI (or AI+ or AI++), don't select special rule. German IA (even IA++ with bonuses) cannot take Paris if they have not the readiness advontage from "western blitzkrieg" card.


I hope you will enjoy it! [:)]



82ndtrooper -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/31/2009 1:42:53 PM)

the pp is with the infantry group so that you cant build a lot of factories and spam PP's.  I think. (factories cant build infantry so this keeps the total amount of PP's available fixed.)

Ill go dl it and play it some today.
ill try it on the west side against AI+

I fear that you have raised the cost of ships too high though.

do you realise that the USA started the war with  roughly

3 carriers, 9 BS, 20 cruisers  and 50 destroyers in the pacific

by 1945  the USA had

97 carriers
24 BS
78 cruisers
and 758 destroyers in the pacific,not counting the atlantic fleet.
at the battles for iwo jima and Okinawa the american fleet had over 40 carriers alone and hundreds of support vessels

http://www.ww2pacific.com/shipcount.html



you based your price of ships on italy's inability to produce them but not the USA'a ability to be able to build them.


one difference between this game and the real thing is that destroyers in WWII for the USA where the primary defense screen for the carriers for both subs and anti air.  (thats why they had 758 of them)

in this game destroyers have no anti air at all only cruisers and BB's do.

also Japan was able to build a lot more carriers than you realise

in the battle of the philippine Sea in 1944 

japan had 9 carriers (including 3 light carriers)
against the usa's 15 (including 8 light carriers)

the number of main carriers was at this battle still allmost even
6 for japan and 7 for the USA.

the problem for Japan wasnt that she couldnt build ships it was that she lost all her trained pilots and couldnt replace them fast enough to man the airplanes.  That and Japan didnt win a single battle after Midway (due mainly to MAGIC intercepts) so she kept losing ships  while the USA kept gaining ships.

Japan had carriers  she just didnt have trained veteran aircrews to fly the planes.

Japan took about a year to train a carrier pilot  while the USA was training them in about 3 months.

in the 1944 marriana's battle japan lost 275 carrier planes and pilots, while the US lost less than 30 of which half of the downed pilots where rescued from the sea and all of the planes where instantly replaced from the supply train.
but all of japans losses where permanent. 

The US called this battle "The great Marriana's Turkey Shoot" because the losses where so lopsided.

http://www.ww2pacific.com/marianas.html 

These astonishing results where due too the USA having veteran pilots and better planes than Japan had by that time in the war. (the USA was also building newer and more advanced ships with radar for example, while japan was mostly building the same as she had at the start of the war )

The earlier Battle of Midway cost japan 4 carriers but what really hurt them was the allmost total loss of all her veteran pilots.
She could and did replace the carriers but she was never able to replace the experianced pilots and this crippled her for the rest of the war.
Japans ability to build ships wasnt really curbed untill around mid to late 1944 when the US finally got airfields close enough to allow constant bombing raids on her industrial centers.

So "maybe" the best way to reflect this would be a increase in the PP cost of teching up ships and planes  rather than a huge increase in ship cost.

also there are other factors that cant be put into the game that hurt japan badly IE: the MAGIC intercepts which allowed the USA to know in advance what Japan was planning  and the death of Admiral Yamammoto that demoralised the japanese navy ( which was acomplished because of the MAGIC intercepts that gave his schedual so the US could ambush his plane and kill him)

I hope this info helps you bro and ill give your scenario a try right now

/salute



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/31/2009 2:30:16 PM)

Thanks for your advice.

I almost agree with you about carriers number. It's very difficult but perhaps USA has not enough factory right now. Anyway, USA have 3 major port city with 16000 capacity prod. So, they can have 3 new carriers in five month, 6 by year with carriers aircraft. They have several city with 8000 capacity prod, and cost of destroyer is the same, and with rising production, they can produce much more in 1942 and 1943 (125%more and 150% more) so they can produce a carrier in a short time at San Francisco or LA, even a carrier and some destroyer in the same time in the same port in 1943 and after. My point of view is that is better to know what is the cost and the time to build than have a check each turn about hull that maybe becomes a ship.

In the game, they begin the war with 4 carrier on the west coast. But, I will check that. USA had huge capacity production during the war.



82ndtrooper -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/31/2009 4:36:10 PM)

at the time of the attack on pearl harbor the USA had 3 carriers in the pacific fleet

the USS Enterprise, USS Lexington and the USS Saratoga

the Enterprise and Lexington where both out at sea and the lady Sara (the Saratoga) was just leaving San Diego for pearl.

http://www.ww2pacific.com/notpearl.html

Composition of the Pacific Fleet in May 1941
At this time, the fleet consisted of nine battleships, three aircraft carriers, 12 heavy cruisers, eight light cruisers, 50 destroyers, 33 submarines, and 100 patrol bombers. This was approximately the unit's strength at the time of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pacific_Fleet

The Yorktown is the fourth carrier but she was transferred from the pacific fleet to the atlantic fleet in april of 1941 she didnt return to the pacific fleet untill december 30 1941,  and she was present at the battle of Midway where she was sunk after two air attacks and a final submarine attack. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CV-5)

PS : I am a WWII history buff [:D]

I do agree that taking out the ship hulls and raising the cost of ships is a good way to go,  I just think you have raised them a little too much. 
But i could be wrong I will play the scenario before saying anything else.



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/31/2009 6:10:14 PM)

Thanks, it is very intersting. I didn't make a serious review of the oob in the pacific theater (that is almost the same than in the 34b version by explorer), because:

1 - I don't know very well this part of wwII. I know much better european war, german and russian organisation, and brit and US organisation and weapons in Europe. So, I am happy of your advice

2 - Japan is awake in 1940, when german takes Paris and established Vichy - I would be surprised if German don't establish Vichy in 1940 but later. I checked quickly Japan forces in the game, and that seems to be almost correct, and anyway, Japan's player (or IA) has time to modify his forces before he launch the major offensive in China. But Japan had a divisional organisation in it's ground forces, without corps like european or US army, and we cannot represents division in the game, it is to small units, if we consider that one subformation is equal to one battalion.

But I noticed that Japan in the game seems to have more CV than they had. I assume that (even it's not my choice but the choice from Tom Weber, I guess), because the game don't make difference beetween main CV and CVe, and Japan had some light CVe, and with a high cost, it is very difficult for Japan to build more CV. During the time beetween 1940 and the major Offensive, Japan has to build more troops to win quickly against China, to prepare south pacific invasion, and Japan has to produce some PP to reach shipsII and carrier II. So, it is difficult for Japan, I didn't change Japan Oob and let the 8 CV.



82ndtrooper -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (1/31/2009 11:31:39 PM)

well i played it for a while and it is as i expected much to hard for the west to replace lost ships.

in the time it takes England to make 1 carrier and 1 battle ship (10 turns which btw those two production centers cant produce anything else no supply no troops no PP nothing leaving only 1 small production center left to fufill all those needs)

germany can produce 40 subs. (even more if they wanted too)
these 40 subs can easily defeat the starting british navy.

so as england if you lose the fleet you start with you will never ever be able to replace them even when the usa is fully online. Making the west no fun to play, because all you do is worry about loseing your fleet.

to win all germany has to do is spam subs and the naval war in the atlantic is over and reduced to nothing but a sub war.

also there are far too many starting units in france  the ai had no chance of ever taking france from me. Not and maintain a garrison in the east. All i had to do was build lots of motors, AT guns and some Infantry and i could defend pretty easily. 

the rest of your changes seem to be very nice though.

Ill try it again with AI++

buts as it stands its unplayable as the west against a human player because of the inability to replace ships. England has to produce supply and troops and PP and other things making it impossible to build even 1 CA at the current prices.



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (2/1/2009 1:09:16 AM)

Well, French army is actually close to the real french army at the beginning of the war. Poor experience and poor command, but not to weak at all. Units are a little less strong than in the former version, but franch have many more units. With germany against AI++ and bonus, I had no difficulty to take France. But AI launches several winter offensive during winter 1940 against siegfried line, and it was a very bad, and very expensive, idea.

With allies against Germany AI++ with bonus, it is very different. AI++ didn't manage the western blitzkrieg very well, in fact it can't take france, and in july 1940, french army is going to take germany. But I did this test with stratégic card "France prepared to war" that cancel the effect on readiness of the "western blitzkrieg card". I didn't yet try humain vs human, but I will do very soon, we shall begin a pbem with other french player in a couple of day, and I will take western allies. May be an AAR with some screen here! [;)]

I'm not sure that german player can spam 40 sub and, in the same time, manage to take France and manage to maintain a sufficiant garrison on the eastern frontier, and, at least, attack balkan minor before SU. But naval warfare in atlantic was not to good for allies before end of 1942 I remember. In another hand, cost of destroyer and sub changed not beetween explorer's tweak and my mod.

Anyway, I have to test that in a PBEM, and I shall do very soon.[8D]



82ndtrooper -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (2/1/2009 1:38:31 AM)

ok bro give it a test as the west and see what you think [:)]



A900 -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (2/1/2009 9:08:24 AM)

Why AI likes Scout and TD very much? It produced too many scouts, TDs , carrier airs and other additional special units. I want the Ai can produce every variety of SFTs. I hope someone can fix it soon. 



82ndtrooper -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (2/1/2009 4:16:40 PM)

I think it produces lots of carrier air because of the cost.  scouts are usefull in amphibious operations because they carry more supply so that maybe why it makes a lot of them.



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (2/1/2009 5:50:19 PM)

Unfortunately, German AI produce a lot of scout to, but Russian AI produce workers and conscript, which are not the best troop it can produce, and chinese produce a lot of conscript to. Yes, I had noticed that, but I am affraid ther are nothing we can do to change that without deep change in the AI.



A900 -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (2/2/2009 1:48:40 PM)

I test some changing in the scenarios yesterday night. And I changed the value of infantry support into 10, AI produced a little less scouts now. TDs' infantry support=33 and armour=70, there were few TDs in German Army by 1942, instead, a lot of panzer IVs were built.



bebert -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (2/2/2009 6:59:14 PM)

I have just update the scenar.

Bug with screenshot is fixed (tanks to Vic who find the soluce)

I have removed the value for infantry support about scout. AI will consider scout only as infantry. But A900, maybe you are right to let 10 instead 0.



Khanti -> RE: Waw ver 35a béberts'way (5/29/2009 7:42:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper
at the time of the attack on pearl harbor the USA had 3 carriers in the pacific fleet
the USS Enterprise, USS Lexington and the USS Saratoga
the Enterprise and Lexington where both out at sea and the lady Sara (the Saratoga) was just leaving San Diego for pearl.
The Yorktown is the fourth carrier but she was transferred from the pacific fleet to the atlantic fleet in april of 1941 she didnt return to the pacific fleet untill december 30 1941,  and she was present at the battle of Midway where she was sunk after two air attacks and a final submarine attack. 

I do agree that taking out the ship hulls and raising the cost of ships is a good way to go,  I just think you have raised them a little too much. 
But i could be wrong I will play the scenario before saying anything else.


At the time of attack on Pearl Harbor the USA had 6 carriers. Period.
They kept 3 CV at Atlantic for political reasons ("the Japs have big advantage in capital ship numbers").
All 3 "atlantic" carriers: Yorktown, Wasp and Hornet were transfered to Pacific during six to nine months of war and never returned to Atlantic. In fact they were useless in Atlantic war (excluding Operation Torch).

You should consider USA with 6 carriers and BIG shipyards to produce more carriers. You could place special cities in USA that can produce ONLY ships (call it "shipyards"). It will keep the balance of other things, let alowing for american naval expansion.

I would suggest the same cities for Japs (at leat one-two "shipyards" with ship-only production abilities).

Cheers and keep up the good work.



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