Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (Full Version)

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pvthudson01 -> Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/22/2009 8:32:23 PM)

Hey all I have been gone for a while and I am looking to shift from single front games to entire WW2 theatre games.

I notice two that have come out that have caught my eye.

Commander: War in Europe and WW2: Road to Victory

I am having issues trying to figure out what the differences are.

I like to zoom in to the action on each front, and have massive front lines with units I can move and adjust. I also like an easy to use airpower system, base supply and a naval system that works with amphibious landings.

I like weather effects, random issues, commanders and some economy.

I like a little diplomacy as well. I just cannot for the life of me figure out which game to pick.

I have played all Battlefront SSG games and some Highway to the Reich and the Crete one.

I liked Strategic Command but it was a little lacking in terms of depth.

http://www.battlefront.com/products/sc2/

I have played TOAW until my eyes bleed. I love the way I can establish front lines and break through and do blitzes in that game as well as dig in and bombard hexes and all that.

Any advice? Also which game is stable and complete in terms of things working well together and a decent AI



Barthheart -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/22/2009 8:54:00 PM)

If you found SC2 lacking in depth then you will with both the games you have listed.

CEAW is a light Grand Strat game. Focus on manouver and such. Not much on large fronts filled with units. Think Panzer General meets Axis and Allies.

WW2:RtW is also a light Grand Strat game. More detail than CEAW but still about the same depth as SC2. This one still needs some work/patches IMHO. Could be great.... but not yet.

Not a Grand Strat game by itself but there are some world wide WWII scenaraios for Advanced Tactics. Great fun and VERY moddable. Deeper than any of the other three. AI's ok to learn with but not much of a challenge after that.

If you want to play the AI, then SC2 is probably the best one.... I just don't like it very much.... the squares is part of the problem for me. All the others have hexes.[8D]



pvthudson01 -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/22/2009 9:26:17 PM)

Hmm yeah the squares didn't really do it for me and I didn't like the economic system too much. This is a tough call. Reading all the reviews and forums makes it even harder. Though I am leaning more towards Commander War in Europe.



philturco -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/22/2009 10:02:18 PM)

What I'd like is a grand scale game that includes ALL of Europe at the scale of TOAW III's FITE scenerio. Also an air war with allied strategic bombing. And finally an economic aspect where axis can vary how it spends its resources for land,sea and air power. This would be a dream come true. This could be a multi-player PBEM game with an axis eastern front player,a western front player ,a Luftwaffe commander and an economic boss who doubles as overall commander and decides how the tanks,guns and other war materials are distributed. I'm curious if there is a market for something this big and complicated.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/22/2009 10:09:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01
Hmm yeah the squares didn't really do it for me and I didn't like the economic system too much. This is a tough call. Reading all the reviews and forums makes it even harder. Though I am leaning more towards Commander War in Europe.


Commander: Europe at War is on about the same level as SC in terms of general abstraction. However, I think that compared to the original SC, it's a better game.

WW2: RTV has more detail than either of those, but is also a first release from a new developer and still has a few rough edges. I think the current ongoing AAR shows what it can do though and it's a good game.

If you want something that is more realistic and covers the entire globe, look at Gary Grigsby's World At War: A World Divided. This is a much improved version of the original World at War and IMHO plays out the entire war with surprising realism given the scale.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/22/2009 10:10:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bibbo
What I'd like is a grand scale game that includes ALL of Europe at the scale of TOAW III's FITE scenerio. Also an air war with allied strategic bombing. And finally an economic aspect where axis can vary how it spends its resources for land,sea and air power. This would be a dream come true. This could be a multi-player PBEM game with an axis eastern front player,a western front player ,a Luftwaffe commander and an economic boss who doubles as overall commander and decides how the tanks,guns and other war materials are distributed. I'm curious if there is a market for something this big and complicated.


Have a look at the ongoing development for World in Flames in our Coming Soon section.

Regards,

- Erik



LarryP -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/22/2009 10:23:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Have a look at the ongoing development for World in Flames in our Coming Soon section.

Regards,

- Erik


He probably wants a game to play this year though... [;)]



Krasny -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/23/2009 11:20:41 AM)

Hearts of Iron 2 gets my vote.

quote:

He probably wants a game to play this year though...


Has the game taken longer to develop than the actual war?



Grell -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 5:22:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins




If you want something that is more realistic and covers the entire globe, look at Gary Grigsby's World At War: A World Divided. This is a much improved version of the original World at War and IMHO plays out the entire war with surprising realism given the scale.

Regards,

- Erik



Gary's World at War is great, excellent advice by Erik!

Regards,

Grell



Feltan -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 11:30:57 AM)

Although not a Matrix title, Hearts of Iron 2 meets all of your requirements.

Regards,
Feltan



Hanal -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 12:46:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Although not a Matrix title, Hearts of Iron 2 meets all of your requirements.

Regards,
Feltan



Except that it has that pausible/real time turn sequence that I could never really warm up to........



Hanal -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 12:48:15 PM)

double post



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 5:36:40 PM)

I would go with World Divided as Erik said.  It's a great game.  It could be a long time for World in Flames ever comes out.

How ever World at war is quarterly turns not monthly or weekly.



Unhappy -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 5:51:18 PM)

Has anybody tried the game Making History? [ http://www.making-history.com/hq/ ] I tried the demo...not too much actually happened but I thought someone that owns the game might provide some better insight.  It is a WWII grand strategy game with production/trade/diplomacy/research etc.  It's only $20 so... less buyer's remorse if it happens to suck. 



GJK -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 5:56:00 PM)

Computer War in Europe (new version about to be released) is as grand as it gets for the ETO. I've enjoyed playing solitaire and have had some great pbem games going as well. Yes, there's no AI for the initial release, but chat about adding one has come up a number of times with the beta-testers. Personally, I'm not convinced that an AI can do justice playing as the Axis in any ETO game. As the Allies perhaps, but not effectively as the Axis.



Fintilgin -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/24/2009 7:58:31 PM)

Commander is a fun, light little game, but I didn't find it as rewarding or deep as as SC:2 with expansions.  I also think it's pretty pricey for what you get.  I did really like some parts of it though.  It does have a nice Panzer General feeling and I like the oil model, which added some serious motivation to push on Baku.

Even though Hearts of Iron 2 isn't entirely to my taste you might investigate it.  It's much more complex then any of the others on offer and it has a very extensive modding community.  I think the HoI2 forum probably sees almost as many posts a day as the entire Matrix games forum (only a little hyperbole here).  It's also available for HALF the price of something like Commander.  You can pick up HoI2:Doomsday and its expansion pack for like 25$

I haven't tried Road to Victory, but from what it looks like and the complaints on the forum it sounds sort of half-baked and incomplete.  I do like the map scale and some of the feature list, but I'm trying to swear off buying apparently unfinished/buggy games at full/premium price. :)



Joe D. -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/25/2009 12:31:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Unhappy

Has anybody tried the game Making History? [ http://www.making-history.com/hq/ ] I tried the demo...not too much actually happened but I thought someone that owns the game might provide some better insight.  It is a WWII grand strategy game with production/trade/diplomacy/research etc.  It's only $20 so... less buyer's remorse if it happens to suck. 


MH was originally a history teaching tool for students who hadn't a clue abt WW II; I bought an advance copy and later regretted it.

MH is similar to a turn-based HoI, which was much better, but the Grigsby title now has my interest if it's been improved.

Any specific comments on the improvements in "A World Divided"?



06 Maestro -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/25/2009 1:49:42 AM)

The best WW2 grand strategy game I have played it HOI 2 DD + Armageddon). Compared to a game like CotA the HOI ai is flaky, but it does work. There are mods that improve play against the ai.



killroyishere -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/25/2009 11:24:43 PM)

Put in another vote from me for Making History. It's turn based and does play a whole lot like the HOI series and I found it quite fun. I like it because no two games are ever really the same and it's fun sometimes when certain allies don't ally historically. Of all the ones I've played I keep coming back to it for my grand strategy fix for WW2.



bradfordkay -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/29/2009 7:36:09 AM)

You guys are all missing the true king of the grand theatre games for WW2: War In The Pacific.

Who cares if it takes you as long to play the game as the war lasted? The trip along the way is so fun!

Strategic bombing, amphibious landings, Japanese economy, true combined arms operations - you even have grand fronts in China!



Rodwell -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/29/2009 5:36:15 PM)

Honestly I cannot recommend either Commander: War in Europe or WW2: Road to Victory.



Kuokkanen -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/29/2009 8:33:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Who cares if it takes you as long to play the game as the war lasted? The trip along the way is so fun!

It might not be fun enough for everyone... [8|]



bradfordkay -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/29/2009 9:49:31 PM)

Easy, Matti, just because it isn't your cup of tea doesn't mean that you should be rolling your eyes at another person's suggestion... you can post your reasons why it doesn't do it for you, but to intimate that another person is nuts for liking it is not very friendly...



cdbeck -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/29/2009 11:52:58 PM)

Hearts of Iron 2 + expansions (available now as a complete version for around $20 is various digital download locations) is a great pick and one of the most detailed simulations you will see. It is far more detailed than its cousin EU:3 and follows the "Victoria" school of thought that Paradox seems to be deviating from (luckily expansions are fixing that). Hopefully HoI3 (coming sometime within a year or so) will be as complex.

You have to credit Erik for his honesty, he could have easily tried to "sell" you on one of those two games, but did the right thing (he believes in customer satisfaction rather than the hard sale, a very rare and commendable trait). Both of those two games are equal to SC2 in abstraction and complexity. I am a big fan of SC2, but I can see why some might object. The expansions for SC2 added a lot of great details, and the new Pacific Theater release is quite nice!

Now GG:WaW is an interesting bird. It is fairly abstracted, but also fairly complex in other areas. It plays much like Axis and Allies with a bit more complexity (unit interactions, rail movement, espionage, supply, and infrastructure management). But it still has a very boardgame feel to it.

World in Flames is going to be a hugely detailed game. I am leery of it a bit, as I was disappointed in the terrible UI and poor feedback of Empire in Arms (also developed from a boardgame equally as complex as World in Flames). If the UI is workable and the game is made so that people who have not played the WiF boardgame canb easily learn the system (tooltips people, tooltips - is it that hard), then WiF is likely to be great fun. But the above posters are right, the release might be a ways off (although it was supposed to be close to release around now, before it got pushed more and more back - another flashback of my anticipation for Empire in Arms days).

EDIT: Re:Joe D - GG:AWD added a nice espionage system, an number of decision events, several tweaks to combat (and some additions to units and sea units). I like both, and I would say that AWD brings some very good things to the table. I suggest checking out the features list to see the changes.

SoM



pvthudson01 -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/30/2009 6:57:59 PM)

Thanks a ton everyone for the advice. I will look into all the games listed.

I should note that I had World at War, the first one, and didnt like the area movement thing. I am more Hex oriented which I guess limits my choices, but I will try anything once. I didnt like HOI 1 that much and gave up on it because of the interface and the combat system.

But times change and games improve so I will check those titles out!

I should mention I need AI also, just in case :)



Joe D. -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/30/2009 7:45:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01

... I didnt like HOI 1 that much and gave up on it because of the interface and the combat system.


HoI2 was a big improvement overall, and I understand there's an HoI3 in the works.
Stay tuned ...



06 Maestro -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/30/2009 8:46:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

HoI2 was a big improvement overall, and I understand there's an HoI3 in the works.
Stay tuned ...



There is also a major patch for HOI2DD Armagedon (1.3). It is a beta, but has some very big changes included.



Joe D. -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/30/2009 11:29:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

HoI2 was a big improvement overall, and I understand there's an HoI3 in the works.
Stay tuned ...


There is also a major patch for HOI2DD Armagedon (1.3). It is a beta, but has some very big changes included.


I have HoI2DD; is Armagedon a mod, or yet another HoI2 version?



06 Maestro -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (1/31/2009 5:55:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
I have HoI2DD; is Armagedon a mod, or yet another HoI2 version?


Armageddon was a major expansion for HOI 2 DD. It costs about 5 bucks at Gamers Gate. Although there are mods that still work with DD, the new ones (most older mods were modified for Arma) are for Armageddon.



Neilster -> RE: Wanting a grand scale WW2 game but which one? (2/18/2009 1:53:15 AM)

From your wishlist and the fact that you like hexes, I'd check out Matrix World in Flames. It has finally an (apparently) firm release date of Jul 27 this year and promises to be epic.

Cheers, Neilster



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