Help with PBEM balance issues (Full Version)

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GeneralRiddler -> Help with PBEM balance issues (1/25/2009 2:04:33 AM)

Hi there,

I've been playing PBEM games with the same opponent for over a year now, and we've run into a problem. Whatever game setting we choose, the same side always wins (despite alternating which side we play). After initial domination by the Allied player starting with the Barbarossa (no advantage, fog of war on, oil off, random research) campaign, we then played multiple grand campaign games with slight axis advantage, fog of war on, oil off, random research. The Axis won each game using a variety of different tactics.

Since then, we've tried playing with no advantage and the Allied team has won quite handily each time (usually sometime in 1943). We both love to play Commander, but we're also a little disappointed that the same side always seems to win (regardless of who's playing it). So, I was wondering if there's anybody else out there who's had this problem when playing a competent opponent, and how they've dealt with it. Are there any mods or house rules that can be made to make it more even and less of a pre-determined outcome?

Thank you.



firepowerjohan -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/25/2009 11:37:04 AM)

A good indicator to if you are playing an evenly matched player is when Paris has fallen. When playing 1939 Grand Campaign you should have been able to conquer Paris by June-August 1904. What patch are you playing, in 1.07 there has been some small changes that for example made Subs much cheaper providing Axis with a better chance off draining Allies in the mid phase of the game.





GeneralRiddler -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/28/2009 1:37:48 AM)

Hi Johan,

Thank you for your message... Yep, we're playing 1.07. That's an interesting point about the timing of the fall of Paris. In our games, the Axis player has generally been capturing Paris around August-September 1940.

In my last game playing as the Axis, I also invested considerably in subs to take advantage of the new rule. In concert with the Luftwaffe, the Kriegsmarine was able to sink almost the entire Royal Navy and implement an effective blockade for much of 1941. However, I'm not sure the investment in PPs and time was worth it. While it did hinder the U.K.'s plans for a while, those efforts hindered preparations for Barbarossa and as a result, the Red Army was able to push the Germans back quite easily in the spring of 42. In the meantime, the U.K. invested significantly in air power and used that as a springboard (along with the US entry) for the successful invasion of Fortress Europa in late 1942.

Also, Russia in our games has typically purchased significant armor units pre-hostilities and usually winds up with a manpower advantage at the start of Barbarossa. Anyways, I know the Axis will always have a tough time fighting on two fronts (as they did historically), but we just are struggling to come up with a strategy in which they can win in an even game...

Thank you for your thoughts.




iancarmichael -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/28/2009 3:29:25 AM)

To conquer France early, attack them ASAP.  I start off attacking the maginot line on the second turn 1939 with available infantry, and one sent from Poland/Berlin.  The French units haven't had a chance to entrench in the fortress hexes yet.  As long as you keep attacking, the entrenchment doesn't build up.  Swing your airforce there for a turn or two when Poland falls and your madly rushing units to the West.  Taking even one hex forces the French to divert at least one Infantry away from the Belgian border.

Shift your forces to the west as soon as Poland falls - take the Netherlands in 1939 and invade Belgium no later than February 1940.  There is no point waiting to build up your Germans, as every turn that the French get to build the ratio of strength swings in their favour.  Yes, the Germans grow in terms of absolute power faster than the allies, but the ratio moves towards being more even (kind of like the age thing - when I'm two and your one, I'm twice as old as you, but when I'm three and your two...).

I have conquered France as early as end of April this way.  If you don't conquer France early, there is no way you can hope to conquer the USSR.

Of course, you may not want to take my advice as I had one victory, and two draws to about 10 victories against one other player - and yes, he won about 50/50 as the axis and the allies[&:]

You really should play the game with the Oil rule, IMO and investing in tech is crucial. No country can afford to be good at everything, so specialize!



firepowerjohan -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/28/2009 1:15:26 PM)

"won about 50/50 as the axis and the allies"

So the game is fairly balanced then in multiplayer is that your conclusion iancarmichael?
Did you also play any of the games at 1.07?

Another comment on the Strategies. Sub warfare can be combined with Strategic bombing of Britain and conquest of Iraq oil field and Egypt since UK cannot afford repairing on all fronts. Idea is, you weaken UK so they get casualties every turn and cannot grow in strength. Vital for this is not only to tech Subs but also tech air. This makes Axis well equiped for a long war since their increased oil saves manpower (you use less infantry) and the PP balance in game is quite even if UK lose alot of convoys and Strategic bombers level their cities.

Also, do not just invest in Navy and Air laboratories since you need some of the other techs also to cope with Russian ground forces later on. But if you get the oil fields conquered then you can use a lot of air support also (tac bombers) and with air superiority you can have a 2:3 ratio in ground forces in Russia and still be able to keep up. For a long game like this you need to max out laboratories quite soon so that you keep a tech lead throughout the game.



joerock22 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/29/2009 2:44:35 PM)

I've had the opposite experience playing as the Axis. I've never been beaten, and I like to think that isn't a reflection on the quality of my opponents. My biggest advice for the Germans in 1939 is don't waste time. Pay for extra railroad moves to get your forces west as soon as Poland falls. Move that tactical bomber so it can attack Hague, Copenhagen, and Brussels, without moving. Spend money on research: air first, then armour and infantry, and finally navy and general. I don't buy any new units (except maybe a TAC and a general) until Paris falls. I usually go for Holland the turn after Poland falls, and Belgium next. However, if the French get aggressive and attack from the Maginot Line, you can sometimes leave Holland alone and just blitz through Belgium. The biggest thing is to do something with every unit every turn. A unit should either be moving, repairing, or getting railroaded to somewhere it can attack from. If you move decisively and use controlled aggression, Paris should fall by June at the very latest, and that's only if your opponent runs a brilliant defense of France and brings in British reinforcements.
Do Operation Sealion! If you're playing with oil off, there is absolutely no reason not to. Depriving Britain of her PP base is even more important than the PP you will gain. Air superiority is the best way to go, but u-boats are imortant for sealing off the landing area until you can capture a city. A smart British player will try to sink the High Seas Fleet and put your troops out of supply, so protect it at all costs.
As for Russia, Germany's biggest advantages are armour and effectiveness. Get Mainstein and 8 tanks up north, and you can slash right through anything the Russians throw at you. The best weapon against a Russian tank is a German panzer. And using armour as your main attack force and infantry to clean up the mess is a great way to save manpower while still advancing quickly. This is why I try to get 3 armour and 3 infantry labs up as soon as I can. Even with oil on and Sealion launched and successful, you won't run out of oil until you're almost to Moscow. If you capture the Middle East, you can last even longer.
Hope this helps. Axis players who aren't aggressive have no chance at victory.



iancarmichael -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/30/2009 2:31:15 AM)

Firepowerjohan,

In general, I agree with Joerock, I think the Germans have an advantage when they conquer France early.  If the Germans have from May/June 40 to May 41 to prepare, the Russians will always be in desperate straits and really need some good luck (especially in convoys and technology) to avoid being conquered.  In my experience, the Russians should only add tech to armor and infantry, and they should max these out if at all possible.  The Russians should also go after Finland agressively as soon as the war with Germany starts - have a couple of infantry and one or two of your armor, as well as all your airforce to do this.  If it looks like the Germans are building a lot of armor, make sure you specialise in anti tank with both your infantry and armor tech.  Some good luck with your anti tank tech will definitely put a damper on those 8 German armor!

In my experience Operation Sealion has been pretty touch and go for the Germans and in the two times my opponent carried it out he was successful only due to my errors with the British Fleet.  In both instances, conquering Britain after the first German force lands took over 8 turns and German losses were substantial (Be very agressive with your meager British forces.  Remeber, the German player can only move 1 hex and rebuild damage at one point until a city is taken).  In the second conquest, the last German BB had only 2 points left by the time the Germans took a city (One more turn!).  The second time he took Britain ended up being one of my two draws achieved as the allies.  Russia was still in the game, as the Germans took a long time to recover from the PPs pumped into the navy and air and the beating they took before London fell.

One thing the British can do to even up the odds a bit is to move both French BBs to the Med, along with the the British Carrier from England and, of course, the British BBS and Carrier that are already in the Med.  Wait for the Italians to declare war, (or a couple of turns before it looks like Paris will fall declare war on them) and attack and destroy the Italian BB in Genoa (there is really nothing the Italians can do about it).  Start with the French BBs, as you won't care how damaged they are.  If the rest of the Italian Navy comes out you might finish them off, if not, they are forced to hide in the Adriatic.

At the same time, make sure you move your one existing motorised unit to Egypt at the start of the game and move out aggressively against the Italians.  The Germans should be too busy polishing off France and then rebuilding to intervene, while your navy will keep any more italians from reinforcing.  In this way you can secure North Africa and build up British forces in Britain to counter Sealion.  When I did this once I got cocky and left my British fleet in the Med too long, allowing the Germans to get across the Channel, remember to move most of it back!

As the British, I invest tech in Infantry, air and maybe one point in General for the economy.  With the Americans I invest in Armor, Air and General.  I would only invest in Navay or Subs if I knew the Germans were doing the same.

Having built up British Air and Infantry, be ready to sacrifice it with an early invasion of France (fall 1941), if Russia looks doomed.

Definitely play with the oil option on, the Germans can run out of oil if they build too much armor and move a large fleet and airforce around too much.  This was definitely a historical factor limiting German mobility.

All the games we played were in 1.07.



iancarmichael -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/30/2009 2:36:25 AM)

By the way, I think a sensible way to even out the game would be to limit agressive landings to 5 months of summer, at least in the Atlantic.  This provides a certain degree of British security against Sealion, and is historically acurate.



joerock22 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (1/30/2009 2:08:36 PM)

Like I said, if you've determined on your first turn that you want to do Sealion, the best way to go is air superiority. The Germans historically knew what they were doing, they just couldn't control the skies. Get 3 TACs and 2-3 Fighters (+ the Italian fighter unit) and stick them right on the French coast. You should be able to wipe the British planes off the map, and a lot of times the Royal Navy will retreat out of range and give you a chance to land. Use u-boats to protect the transports and your surface fleet. If they do come back to challenge you at sea, you can bomb them to pieces. And softening up beach and city defenses with air attacks is the best way to make progress on the ground while taking few casualties. Air upgrades help, which is why I always purchase an air lab on my first turn and try to get another one up as soon as possible.
I've executed Sealion successfully against the same opponent 3 times, so we're playtesting new house rules where Germany can only land 2 units at a time. I think it might be an overcompensation, but we'll see. Air power will be absolutely essential to a successful operation under these rules.



YourAdmiral -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (2/24/2009 8:41:21 PM)

joerock22,

Some interesting points, but it seems like the key to your Axis strategy is an early fall of France. In numerous games with an equally matched opponent, with both of us switching sides for different games, we've never been able to accomplish this. France falls in September 1940 at the earliest, in some cases as late as January 1941. Here's why:

* The French player typically adopts a static defense, building up units behind the river just south of the Belgian border. While the Germans finish off Poland, Denmark, Holland, and Belgium (and Norway occasionally) the French mass all their units along this line and through Lorraine to the Maginot Line, and by the time the Germans invade the French have developed a double-row of entrenched infantry with a river defense bonus that is very tough to break down (the double row prevents the forward French unit from retreating from their river defense position when attacked). In some cases Germany has invaded France earlier, before Holland, but in this case they still don't have a good ratio of forces compared to what the French have. And the quality of French forces is actually rather good.

* The British stay out of France and conserve their PPs. The Mediterranean fleet is moved to the UK to give the Brits a massive navy to fend off Sea Lion. As for new units, the Brits can go three ways -- invest in infantry to defend the landings on the UK coast (bad idea), invest massively in air to hammer the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine when Sea Lion starts (better), or buy destroyers, typically getting 2 additional ones (probably best). With three destroyers, the UK will be able to charge through any sub screen the Axis uses to defend the Sea Lion landings.

* If the Axis player still pursues Sea Lion, the UK's massive navy (both Med and Home fleets combined off the UK coast and typically out of air range until the landings occur) will be able to sweep down from the North Sea and break through the sub screen and kill the surface ships that the Axis needs to keep the landing units in partial supply until a city is captured. The UK can even be extra tricky and buy its own subs ... these can be incredibly frustrating to an Axis player who isn't expecting them when their transports or subs start to move into position.

Even if the Luftwaffe has air superiority, they won't have enough tac bombers in late 1940 or early 1941 to be able to stop the slaughter of the surface ships supporting the invasion. You're talking about 2-3 tac bombers versus something like 10 Royal Navy ships. The landing forces will be left totally without supply and eventually will be destroyed. In addition, the Brits really only need to kill or weaken the armor in the invasion force while its on the transports in order to blunt Sea Lion -- at most 1-2 units. Infantry alone on the UK beaches won't be able to capture a city in order to secure the all-important supply.

If the RAF doesn't have air superiority, I simply pull them back such that the Luftwaffe doesn't have the range to attack the fighters directly, but the RAF can still provide air cover to the sea hexes in the English Channel and North Sea. I believe you need to put a fighter 9 hexes away from whatever sea hex you are trying to protect in order for this to work at this stage in the game.

* Having wasted its forces on Sea Lion, the German player will be too weakened to pull off an effective invasion of Russia.

The alternative, of course, is to not do Sea Lion at all, but instead focus on Russia. We've found that in this case, the UK and US are able to produce enough units to launch an invasion of France by mid-1942. Unable to advance in Russia and forced to defend its rear, Germany collapses by 1943.

This has been the case with multiple games in multiple scenarios, such as invading Spain, Turkey, etc.



Fred98 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (2/24/2009 10:44:21 PM)

If the French out up a stiff defence, the Italians can declare war and German and Italian trops can move into Lyon and then Blitz to Paris. [:)]




joerock22 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (2/25/2009 2:19:41 PM)

YourAdmiral,

The key to my strategy isn't an early fall of France, it's an early invasion of France, which in turn leads to an early fall.  In your games, when are you invading France?  If the German player moves swiftly and decisively, he should be able to polish of Holland and Belgium and invade France by January 1940 at the latest.  If you do this, France just doesn't have enough units to establish a solid 2-unit line of defense.  Attack the weak point in the line (usually near Lorraine) and force the French to either retreat, counterattack, or get hit from multiple sides.  There is no reason Germany can't conquer France by Summer 1940, at the latest. 

I use controlled aggression to accomplish this.  Try to destroy 2-3 French units per turn without leaving any of your units especially exposed as "targets of opportunity."  Use extra railroad moves to get units out of Poland and into position to attack the low countries asap.  Sometimes I use 5 extra RR moves in a single turn, but the earlier fall of France makes it completely worth it. 

As for your other point, you are correct in saying that a large British naval force in the area makes Sealion much more difficult.  Difficult, but not impossible.  If your opponent does this, you might just be better off invading Egypt and conquering the Middle East instead.  DO NOT move the Luftwaffe away from the French coast, however.  Even if you have no intention of doing Sealion, continue to pound the British ships and defenses and make your enemy think you are planning to invade.  This doesn't let him send many ships or ground units to the MED.  And if he does, you can launch Sealion whenever you want, even late in 1941.  In the meantime, build up a massive army for Russia with Mainstein leading them and bumping their effectiveness up to the 90s.  If you don't launch Sealion, you should easily be able to fuel 8 tanks well into 1942, or plenty of bombers if you prefer. 

If you're still wondering how a spring/summer 1940 fall of France can be achieved, I'd be more than happy to show you [:)]  I've been looking for some more pbem opponents.  Email me at joerock22@comcast.net if you're interested. 



firepowerjohan -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (2/25/2009 3:03:41 PM)

From our TcpIP games we played months ago, the normal time Paris fall is between June-September 1940. Martin Andersson is the best CEAW player known, he has won like 50 games and lost one so there is a large base of games to support it. Holding Paris is very important in game, losing it early gives Axis a clear advantage of course.



YourAdmiral -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (2/25/2009 3:40:51 PM)

Good responses -- my reply:

Firepowerjohan -- we have had games where the arrival of the Italians is what swings the day in favor of conquering France. That doesn't happen so much anymore now that we've improved German tactics, but it has happened. In any event it's irrelevant -- what's key is whether Sea Lion succeeds. In your second message, what then happens after the fall of France in even games? Does Martin then launch Sea Lion successfully? Who is the best Allied player?

Joerock22 -- We are typically launching Fall Gelb in January of 1940. Even so it is taking until August-September to finish off the French. Because the German invasion force is relatively small that early in the game it is extremely difficult to make progress through Lorraine with the French harrying your flanks.

"Try to destroy 2-3 French units per turn without leaving any of your units especially exposed as "targets of opportunity." -- easier said than done and mutually exclusive goals. The Germans have to take risks to get kills and when they take risks they lose their own units.

Regarding your latter point, I believe my earlier statement still holds true -- if the Germans do not succeed at Sea Lion, they will lose the game, and Sea Lion cannot succeed against a good opponent. The Germans can focus on the Med instead of the UK, but soon (mid-1942) the UK and US will be on the beaches in France, and the Germans will be stranded in Egypt and unable to get back to Europe as the UK will have moved the Med fleet back into the Med to control the sea (and brush the Italians aside).

If the Germans invade the UK in late 1941, they will soon have American troops in Britain to contend with in addition to Brits. Not an option.

Perhaps the best way to resolve this dispute is through a friendly game ....[:)]




joerock22 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (2/25/2009 4:15:27 PM)

YourAdmiral,

I just recently conquered Paris on April 28, 1940 while only losing 3 corps units.  And this was against the finest opponent I have ever played against, someone who in another game captured Moscow against me in 1941 and will finish off Russia in 1942!  So it can be done, even against very good opponents.  And Germany still has an excellent chance at victory even if they don't do Sealion; I won a game not taking England until 1944 (after USSR fell) against a very capable opponent.  So that can be done as well.  It all depends on your Russian attack and Fortress Europe defense strategies.  I also won a game where I didn't do Sealion until summer 1941 (and I lost a game as the Allies the same way).  I'm not just spouting garbage when I make these assertions; they all actually happened to me.  I would welcome a friendly game.  [:)]  You have my email address. 



YourAdmiral -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (2/26/2009 6:14:24 AM)

Joerock22,

I just sent you an email ... let slip the dogs of war!



KingHunter3059 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (3/2/2009 3:44:46 PM)

Ahh - Shakespeare - I too am looking for a worthy opponent. However me and Joe have tried and failed - I have Slitherine 1.07, and I currently have a Slitherine opponent on 1.07, I am however, looking to play ALLIES.


Jay



joerock22 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (3/30/2009 10:12:59 PM)

For anyone interested in the friendly game between myself and YourAdmiral, here's how the game has played out through Fall 1941.

Issue #1: Can Germany achieve an early surrender of France while losing few units?
Yes. I was right on this one. Paris fell in April 1940, and I lost 2-3 German corps.

Issue #2: Can Germany conquer England even if the Allied player does everything in his power to prevent it?
Yes. I was right here too, but only if you include a giant Barry Bonds-sized asterisk. As promised, YourAdmiral brought his entire navy and Egyptian army to England. I launched Sealion in Fall 1940, and London didn't fall until spring 1941. Months of vicious fighting rocked Southern England, and the RN nearly broke through my sub screen on a couple occasions. Even with supply, my ground troops were in serious trouble. I lost 2 tanks and several infantry units, but mostly the problem was just the casualties. I lost so many men, and the repairs (especially air) were so costly that I didn't launch Barbarossa until October 1941. It was the weakest invasion of Russia I had ever launched, and to manage even that I needed to gut my western defenses, leaving just bare-bones armies in occupied France and England.
I could just as easily have lost the British campaign too. The final attack on London was only a success because I could send 8 (EIGHT) air units into the fray. You can imagine the kind of oil I was using. It's a good thing I conquered Iraq. YourAdmiral almost drove me into the sea, and even in defeat he made my victory so costly that I may never recover.

I've learned a lot from this game. If your Allied opponent is putting all his effort into protecting England, it's probably best to just forget Sealion. Go for the Middle East, build up a large sub fleet to choke off his shipping, and launch an early and massive invasion of the Soviet Union. Do anything but what I did: commit yourself to months of bloody fighting for an island that just isn't worth it unless you can take it relatively easily. Some of my earlier comments about Sealion, like "there's no reason not to launch it," are dead wrong. But I'm always happy to learn from my mistakes. [:)]



firepowerjohan -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (3/31/2009 11:42:09 AM)

Sounds like you are having a fun game [:)]



panzers -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/1/2009 2:34:38 PM)

would like to play a pbem game with someone. I am new to it si I might need few tweaks on how to do it



YourAdmiral -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/2/2009 8:48:18 PM)

joerock22,

That was indeed an awesome Sea Lion battle ... I'll post some screenshots shortly. It seriously could have gone either way, and even in the turn before I lost London I thought I had it won.

Right now we're in late November 1941 ... the Axis is advancing into Russia, which so far has put up little resistance other than a preemptive strike on Finland. After being decimated in the aftermath of Sea Lion (joerock22's U-boats eliminated all the fleeing British units but 1-2, including their naval escorts), the Royal Navy has returned to action in the Atlantic with U-boats of its own, sinking an Italian battleship.

We are now on the verge of the U.S. entering the war. But the ability of the Allies to open a front in the West is limited by the Axis air superiority, which is considerable. This one could still go either way....



panzers -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/3/2009 7:26:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

would like to play a pbem game with someone. I am new to it si I might need few tweaks on how to do it

have been asking for a week now. Anyone at all interested?



joerock22 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/3/2009 2:05:41 PM)

Sorry dude, but I have too many pbem games going on now as is. [:(] I'd recommend posting something over at the Slitherine forums. For whatever reason, there's a lot more activity over there than there is here. Specifically, they have a "Multiplayer: opponent seeking" thread which is pretty useful. I've gotten a handful of opponents from there, but you could also post in the general section. Make sure you say which version of the game you're using: 1.06, 1.07, or 1.12. The Matrix and Slitherine versions are mostly compatible, so you shouldn't have a problem there. Good luck! [:)]



firepowerjohan -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/3/2009 2:35:53 PM)

I recommend updating to 1.12 since it contains the 1.07 patch as well as the Gold features and DS/PSP campaign scenarios. You get all this for FREE so do not need to buy the new CEAW Gold if you already bought the good ole CEAW. Enjoy! [:)]



Barthheart -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/3/2009 4:36:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

I recommend updating to 1.12 since it contains the 1.07 patch as well as the Gold features and DS/PSP campaign scenarios. You get all this for FREE so do not need to buy the new CEAW Gold if you already bought the good ole CEAW. Enjoy! [:)]


Is 1.12 available for the Matrix version? If so where?



IainMcNeil -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/3/2009 4:39:15 PM)

Matrix have had the files for a few days so I imagine they are in final testing and the patch will be with you soon.



Barthheart -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/3/2009 4:54:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Matrix have had the files for a few days so I imagine they are in final testing and the patch will be with you soon.


Cool, thanks.[8D]



KingHunter3059 -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/3/2009 6:08:44 PM)

Hey Panzer - I'll play you! I have 1.12 Gold - Let me know if you are intereested.

Jay



YourAdmiral -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/10/2009 6:02:26 AM)

So here's joerock22's opening Sea Lion move. He has subs bracketing the English Channel to protect his transports from the Royal Navy ... my battleship at left found out the hard way. You can see some of his air, but he has more in Belgium. The RAF is stationed just west of Birmingham, above the screenshot. My strategy is to buy time blocking coastal hexes to prevent his landings, while my air units attack his armor on transports (you see one hit in this shot, the red 6).

[image]local://upfiles/29089/E0C98B4C9C7A4341A825E8D3142D3277.jpg[/image]



YourAdmiral -> RE: Help with PBEM balance issues (4/10/2009 6:06:11 AM)

Next turn, October 25, 1940. joerock22 gets some units ashore in the southeastern UK, but they are already damaged due to air attacks. More of the Luftwaffe shows up on his end. The Royal Navy shows up at the western end of the English Channel and starts to bash away at the sub screen.

[image]local://upfiles/29089/946F56BF44844F28B955DF1BCECCA090.jpg[/image]



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