Computer Europe at War (Full Version)

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balto -> Computer Europe at War (1/27/2009 12:30:29 AM)

http://www.decisiongames.com/wwii/europe/europe.htm

Hi,

If I am reading the internet correctly, this will be out soon. I was wondering if anybody knew: (1) Is that Download demo the new version that is not released yet, or is it the old version? (2) It seems possible this game could be great, but you never know. Does anyone have any thoughts on this one. I am getting antsy waiting on Crown of Glory; Emperor's Edition.

Thanks



GJK -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/27/2009 1:01:52 AM)

I won't harp here on Matrix's forums too much more about it as I have said plenty already - a search should pull up some info - but to quickly answer your questions:

1. Yes, that demo is for the upcoming (soon - materials off to the publisher now) release and allows you to play the "Polish Campaign".

2. I've enjoyed beta-testing it. It accurately represents the boardgame of the same name on the computer with additional options and fixes that the boardgame doesn't have in it. Huge map, lots of units with a very simple UI and what I love most, you can see all the strength/movement points right there on the counters and don't have to mouse over a stack to get the info for it.



old man of the sea -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/28/2009 2:41:25 AM)

it looks great

played the demo, plays good too

E



Grell -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/28/2009 5:13:20 AM)

Thanks for the heads up Balto, I'll look into this game.

Regards,

Grell



Capitaine -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/28/2009 4:31:51 PM)

I downloaded and played the Demo with the Polish campaign.  It played pretty well I thought but I had two sort of negative reactions:

(1) The system seems pretty bland and vanilla after the many years when this game was in vogue; and
(2) I didn't like the map very much; seems to be a tile system.  Especially the very angular appearance of the RRs, unlike in the actual SPI game.  I think a straight copy of the original map would've been better, or at least make the RRs rounded.  Some won't mind this point, but it affects my buying decision.

The interface and game options were both pretty good though.  There seems to be some potential here but it's not groundbreaking, espec. with no AI.



Fred98 -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/28/2009 8:48:58 PM)

Capitane,

When you start the demo, you see an options screen. One option is the map tiles. You can choose the board game map tiles.

However I reckon all the map tiles are poor.

All I know about modding games is how to spell the phrase. Antd yet I used Microsoft Paint and modded the map tiles. Its very easy!
-






GJK -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/28/2009 10:38:34 PM)

I've done a few map mods for the beta. Yes, the unfortunate part is that it is a "tiled" display in that every terrain type shares the same, single image so you can't get add the details that a single map image file will allow you to add. CWiE does use a different set of tiles for each weather zone, depending on the current month however, so there is some variation across the entire map.



Capitaine -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/29/2009 4:06:29 AM)

Joe, I will look at this and see if the option you refer to provides the original map.  Will post afterward!



Capitaine -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/29/2009 4:11:39 AM)

Yeah I just tried the SPI "map tiles" and the RR tiles remain the same angular ones as in the other tiles.  It's just coloring that's different (clear is off white instead of green, e.g.).



Twotribes -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/29/2009 6:37:44 AM)

Now if they would just publish the damn game. It is almost February and they have been saying December January since well December.



goodwoodrw -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/29/2009 11:32:10 PM)

Do I understand correctly, no single player option?



Aurelian -> RE: Computer Europe at War (1/29/2009 11:47:06 PM)

No AI.



davetheroad -> RE: Computer Europe at War (2/16/2009 2:59:57 PM)

For me no AI is an advantage. The AI in games of this scope cannot hope to compete with a human mind as there are so many possibilites and permutatations. I like the idea of a game with big scope and room for operational movement without all the cluttering detail of some other games. It is bad enough having to move and fight over a hundred units without having to deal with all the specialised units.

the editing possibilities are intruiging as the vanilla scenarios can be modded and even new ones created. It always irritated me that there was no way the German Cavalry division could get to the Dnepr in 3 weeks, which it did historically. Just mod it with a larger movement allowance and even give it a force march option? One nice chrome option is you can give individual units names, so I can have infantry regiment Gross Deutschland in Barbarossa.

CWIE has come up in several forums recently and when it is published (23 March?) a single contact point needs to be organised for game discussion, finding opponents etc.



jeggett -> RE: Computer Europe at War (4/29/2009 1:30:06 PM)

No AI (or bad AI) is no purchase here..



JudgeDredd -> RE: Computer Europe at War (4/29/2009 2:19:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad

For me no AI is an advantage. The AI in games of this scope cannot hope to compete with a human mind as there are so many possibilites and permutatations.

I agree wholeheartedly...AI at this level is pretty useless...I would think about buying but for two things...lack of knowledge of where pbem players are and, most of all, price.It's way too costly. £40 and not knowing if it would be right for me? Too much of a gamble.

The demo was piss poor and in know way allowed a noob to the game to see if it was acceptable. Half a dozen turns of world wide play and a tutorial thrown in would have been a bigger seller. A longer bigger scale demo would've sufficed I expect, allowing people to see the bigger picture of what their money is going for.

Don't forget, and I'm not taking away from developers here, but creating a game, from an existing board game, without an AI is alot easier than producing one with an AI...bad or good. So £40 without the effort put in to an AI is alot of money for less work, as far as I can gather.

Meant to say, throw in postage and it's an expensive purchase at $94 and it's a big no-no.



Vorsteher -> RE: Computer Europe at War (4/29/2009 2:29:19 PM)

No, this a top Game for me. No AI, no problem. i play better against human player :-))
The demo says nothing. Who like SSG games, like WIE.



madgamer2 -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 5:45:32 AM)

I do not mean any disrespect here but I go back to the days of those big monster games that even if you liked them the space and setup time were enormous. I have the original and am selling with my other board games.
The point here is using the computer as tabletop and moderator. The hardcore board gamers like me are still out here and still have the same problems of space,time,and finding people who can actually get together to play. I for one hope this type of game production goes on because now the games like WIE can be played with the computer.
Those that complain about no AI ard not getting the point. These are not computer games that are played on the computer. They are games played by players using the computer as the means to an end. There is I think a large market for this new type of game. Its for board gamers who now have a way to play there games like WIE. The computer can do much of the book work also. Now if some designer could figure out how to give this treatment to say.....Europa.....naw that's just a dream.
Those of you who did not grow up with board games and are computer gamers (think AI) now have a chance to play the way we used to play. So come on computer gamers give it a try before you start complaining about no AI.

Madgamer



JudgeDredd -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 7:33:04 AM)

Well I'm not missing the point. I presume your retorte is to other posters regarding AI.

My point is that is an expensive computer game without the attempt of an AI. Other computer programmers who attempt to put an AI in, which I suspect could well be estimated at least 50% of a developers time, goes for less than $60. So it seems they are charging a premium for a computer representation and hope that boardgamers see that as value.

As a computer game player, I do not. I understand your point, but I still think it's heavily over-priced and, by not having a download option, they've limited their market even further.

I didn't go to business school, and I'm a simple guy...but I would've thought if you were in business and offering a product, limiting your market was not a good idea.

Good luck to them, but until they drop the price or, at the very least, have a download option or a euro distribution store so I don't have to burn money on postage, then I won't buy.



Twotribes -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 7:39:35 AM)

They are a small niche company. Run by, as I recall a married couple. Most of their games are board games. They generally try and get people to pledge to buy a coming new product so they know how many to make and then can keep costs down.



typhoon -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 9:29:47 AM)

Not bothered by the lack of an AI or the cost always agree that ventures like this need our support what bothers me is the shipping and long wait. Looks a great game but it needs to be easier to get hold of espesially for us living outside the U.S



Twotribes -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 10:42:06 AM)

They have a board up, I ask if they could find a quicker way to ship to Europe. Strategy and Tactics runs the board. Perhaps you can find the address at Decision games or by searching for Strategy and tactics . I do not like posting links to other game companies on , well another game companies site )



Twotribes -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 10:46:49 AM)

Fellow In UK said it only took 11 days to get his game, though customs held it up without telling him cause they wanted some cash.



killroyishere -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 11:08:33 AM)

I think it's kind of funny how most gamers will spend hundreds if not a thousand dollars or more on a computer rig and then some complain about a game being $40-$50 or even $94 haha. If it's something you want to play and the quality is good then $40-$100 for that game shouldn't be an issue. But, that's computer gamers for you they are a much different brood of people than board wargamers.

And on that subject I don't think 'most' hard core board wargamers are even going to have computers (for wargaming) since they are putting most of that hardware money (most of us put into computers) into buying their board wargames. So, I don't really think there is a huge market for computer wargames without an ai like madgamer spoke about above. I was a board wargamer in my youth, but, you couldn't get me to go back to that form of playing even if there were thousands of board wargames for computers (which there aren't).

I enjoy my games against an ai opponent and that is what I prefer 99% of the time now as I don't have to setup any times or check my email 100 times a day or once a day waiting on a turn. PBEM is still a waiting game and is still the slow way to play. There's not enough time anymore for slow playing games. I'd rather play TCP/IP myself if I'm going to play another human opponent.



Twotribes -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 11:25:24 AM)

Thus this type of game is no competition for what Matrix sells. I switched to computers from board games cause I could not find live opponents to play. ANY time I find an old board game made faithfully into a computer version I am going to get it if it was one of the 80 or so games I own and have rotting away in my garage. Solo play is no big deal and if I want I can easily find live opponents. These monster games were slow to play anyway, with a very active turn taking quite a while to work through.



Lützow -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 11:37:19 AM)

Probably it's just me, but I can't see the advantage of a missing AI in CEaW when computer-based wargames usually delivers both, solitaire and pbem play. Anyway, feel free to enlighten me how this rather bland looking title stands out from TOAW or the upcoming WiF.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 11:56:15 AM)

Well I spent £500 on my computer. But comparing game prices to computer hardware is hardly productive or fair. I was comparing apples to apples...you are comparing oranges to grapes.

I was comparing the game to the cost of other games which have an AI and I think, pound for pound, there's less there. I also said if there wasn't the wastage that is postage, then I would consider it. Postage is burning money to me...and I wouldn't sit here and burn $34...would you?



Sarge -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 12:01:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer

I do not mean any disrespect here but I go back to the days of those big monster games that even if you liked them the space and setup time were enormous. I have the original and am selling with my other board games.
The point here is using the computer as tabletop and moderator. The hardcore board gamers like me are still out here and still have the same problems of space,time,and finding people who can actually get together to play. I for one hope this type of game production goes on because now the games like WIE can be played with the computer.
{snip}

Madgamer


What’s wrong with the existing PC outlet for tabletop gamers ……..vassal ?





davetheroad -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 12:22:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Probably it's just me, but I can't see the advantage of a missing AI in CEaW when computer-based wargames usually delivers both, solitaire and pbem play. Anyway, feel free to enlighten me how this rather bland looking title stands out from TOAW or the upcoming WiF.

There is no missing AI because the AI was never there in the first place.

I understand the design brief was to port the board game to a modern windows environment so you could play online. This helps with 2 fundamental problems, lack of opponents and no room to set out the huge maps. They have added a bunch of new stuff as options so the game engine can be radically different than the original. I don't think making vast profits is their main motivation, it is probably love of the game or maybe even obsession[;)]

CEaW has production and important for me is basically simple in concept if large. Ever tried a giant TOAW east front scenario?, no way, I just can't handle the information overload. There is nothing wrong with TOAW and I used to game it a lot, even produced the original base map on which all those monster east front scenarios were built.

Shipping is too expensive if you have to add in customs charges etc. Even so I happily paid the cost as it still works out a lot cheaper than going down the pub!



Sarge -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 1:07:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad

I understand the design brief was to port the board game to a modern windows environment so you could play online. This helps with 2 fundamental problems, lack of opponents and no room to set out the huge maps. They have added a bunch of new stuff as options so the game engine can be radically different than the original. I don't think making vast profits is their main motivation, it is probably love of the game or maybe even obsession[;)]



Then let the existing community that already own n’ supports the product release a vassal module if that’s the case......[;)]



Barthheart -> RE: Computer Europe at War (5/1/2009 1:41:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: davetheroad

I understand the design brief was to port the board game to a modern windows environment so you could play online. This helps with 2 fundamental problems, lack of opponents and no room to set out the huge maps. They have added a bunch of new stuff as options so the game engine can be radically different than the original. I don't think making vast profits is their main motivation, it is probably love of the game or maybe even obsession[;)]



Then let the existing community that already own n’ supports the product release a vassal module if that’s the case......[;)]



Mainly because VASSAL doesn't enforce the rules where CWIE does. VASSAL won't do all the bookkeeping where CWIE does. CWIE is so much more than "just a port" to computer, it includes an enforced rule book, a bookkeeper and dozens of optional rules that were always a problem keeping track of the rule changes.... all done for you so you can focus on playing the game.

I too, however, have a problem with the postage to Canada. If they ever do digital download I'll buy it. Plus it's easier to get it by my wife that way....[;)]



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