AO Thoughts (Full Version)

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Capitaine -> AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 1:52:21 PM)

My take on the new AO concept in Kharkov is generally very favorable. One thing that concerns me, though, is when it may come time to retreat/flee. I say this in the context of the experience I described playing the Soviets. I understand having formations committed to a rigid AO as long as the battle plan is intact, but if one must abandon the battle plan to save yourself, it's my sense that these endangered formations should be able to flee back into the safest area regardless of the AO. In my game, I had my units just stopped and entrenched at the arbitrary limit of the "red zone", unable to run further from the Nazi menace.

Thoughts?




Wallenstein -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 3:01:33 PM)

I agree and wanted to raise this issue as well - but I´m glad it did someone whose English is better.[:)]
When being on the defense and under heavy pressure the ao boundaries often are too restrictive.




Avatar47 -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 5:28:07 PM)

Maybe it needs individual AO's being modified, and not a rule change. Or maybe it does need a rule change....




Capitaine -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 5:42:26 PM)

Yeah, I'm not sure how a fix could be implemented.  After all, "rear areas" of some AOs are the "fronts" of others.  It almost calls out for some kind of complete abandonment switch, which wouldn't permit any forward motion.

The alternative is that the scenario is purposefully not long enough to warrant a "retreat" area, so units are just stuck and on Hitlerian "no retreat" orders for the duration. [;)]




hank -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 6:10:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wallenstein

I agree and wanted to raise this issue as well - but I´m glad it did someone whose English is better.[:)]
When being on the defense and under heavy pressure the ao boundaries often are too restrictive.



Me too. I've experienced being trapped by the imaginary "line in the sand" of an AO boundary. In a pbem game I had units that were fairly strong units trapped in an area and could not go anywhere because their backs were against an AO boundary.

I don't know what anyone can do about it. One thing I intend on for future pbem games is to play with no AO's. The HQ's command range and supply issues are enough of a pseudo-AO to contend with in a head to head battle. These AO's in pbem games are ripe for some gamey play. ... of course that's just my humble opinion.







Wallenstein -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 6:25:37 PM)

When does this problem bother me (as Soviet player) in Kharkov?

It happens when the German player has a very good start with his offensive in the south and/or he exploits Barvenkovo. In that case a considerable size of Soviet units would not be able to retreat and form a defense further north.

Well, imho a rule change is not necessary, I think it is a parameter that can be specified through scenario creation.




Gregor_SSG -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 10:25:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

My take on the new AO concept in Kharkov is generally very favorable. One thing that concerns me, though, is when it may come time to retreat/flee. I say this in the context of the experience I described playing the Soviets. I understand having formations committed to a rigid AO as long as the battle plan is intact, but if one must abandon the battle plan to save yourself, it's my sense that these endangered formations should be able to flee back into the safest area regardless of the AO. In my game, I had my units just stopped and entrenched at the arbitrary limit of the "red zone", unable to run further from the Nazi menace.

Thoughts?


What we need to consider here is that no officer in the Red Army was free to make military decisions without giving strong consideration to 'political' issues - political being understood in the broadest sense, as in 'office politics', except much more deadly.

Stalin's purges of the Red Army had taught, in blood, some vital lessons. One was that any deviation, no matter how trivial or reasonable, from the current party line was exceptionally dangerous. On the battlefield, this translated as 'any deviation from current orders', which was likewise fraught with danger.

Another lesson was that when things went wrong, blame would be allocated and punishment inflicted. Deviation from orders was a lightning rod for blame allocation and its consequences.

To reinforce these lessons, Stalin instituted dual command, with a Commissar, who had equal rank and authority, for each officer. In its strictest form, no order in the Red Army was valid unless authorised by both the Officer and his Commissar.

So lets imagine that you are a Soviet general on the southern front of Kharkov. The fascist invaders have just launched a major offensive on your hopelessly inadequate defences. You defend stoutly, of course, and try to alert HQ to the gravity of the situation, but they are slow to realise the truth of what is happening, and in any case, nobody has made a plan for such an eventuality.

You could, as the officer on the ground with the best picture of what's happening, exceed your current orders and order a general withdrawal to a more defensibe position, but you won't. Firstly, your Commissar would almost certainly not agree, and could try to have you arrested or even shot. Secondly, if you do manage to issue the order, everything that goes wrong between your position, and say Belgorod, will now be the fault of Comrade General Betrayer of the Motherland, who deliberately exceeded his clear orders, and so caused the disaster.

If you stay, the worst the Germans can do is shoot you, although the chances of that happening aren't high. Better to maintain your position until you are clearly surrounded, then commandeer the fastest available transport and make a midnight dash across the battlefield. If you do reach safety you report that you obeyed all orders to the last, and then heroically fought your way out of encirclement. Said encirclement only happened because formations either side of you gave way, otherwise you would still be repelling the fascist hordes from your original line.

Now obviously, a game at the Kharkov level cannot hope to model the messy and often undefined nature of high level command in a real battle, but the AOs do a very good job of modelling the *effects* of such decisions. So when Soviet forces are forced to commit militarily stupid acts, they are just following ample historical precedent, and recreating an inevitable outcome of the Soviet command ethos.

Gregor





Capitaine -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/29/2009 11:19:34 PM)

I can appreciate that line of thought and design, Gregor.  That's about what I figured might be the case, but just thought it would be a good point to raise.  Of course, does "the party line" change, too, at some point?  Should the high command be able to authorize a general retreat?  I don't know that either.  It really also calls into question which hat you, the player, are wearing.  As in many wargames, you are representing numerous commanders and making each of their decisions in a reasonable fashion, even though there's "ESP" involved.  Yet with the AO concept in place, to what extent if any do you even represent the high command?




Carl Myers -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/30/2009 12:04:19 AM)

Don't forget, most communications in WWII still go by landline, move an army out of its prelaid wire network and you have a gaggle battalions trying reestablish communitions.




e_barkmann -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/30/2009 12:37:11 AM)

the fascinating thing for me is that the local Soviet commanders knew fairly early on that there would be trouble on their southern flank and they still persisted in their westerly attacks....crazy stuff but makes sense when you read Gregor's comments.

cheers




Gregor_SSG -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/30/2009 5:16:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

I can appreciate that line of thought and design, Gregor.  That's about what I figured might be the case, but just thought it would be a good point to raise.  Of course, does "the party line" change, too, at some point?  Should the high command be able to authorize a general retreat?  I don't know that either.  It really also calls into question which hat you, the player, are wearing.  As in many wargames, you are representing numerous commanders and making each of their decisions in a reasonable fashion, even though there's "ESP" involved.  Yet with the AO concept in place, to what extent if any do you even represent the high command?


In the DB system you do wear a couple of hats. In the Kharkov battle, you would be something like a Front commander, albeit one who makes a lot of decisions normally made by Army commanders. Above you is STAVKA and above them is Stalin. Now, Stalin and STAVKA, acting together, could issue any order, so if we put you in their shoes then there's not much point to AOs.

The intention of the AOs is to impose some militarily and historically reasonable restrictions on a player. This means that the Soviet player is going to miss out on offensive opportunities, and suffer from restrictive orders on defence, because this is what happened to the Red Army, time after time.

Gregor




Noakesy -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/30/2009 8:07:15 AM)

I think the AOs are great, in my mind the variants could have been more dramatic in some respects, but mostly they tinker with the situation. I imagine with the new patch this may change (ie different numbers of steps, and possibly different formations, relating to each patch). I had thought of them along the lines set out above. Great innovation, now if you just used this concept on KP.............[;)][:)] Of course, if you don't like them you just turn them off.




Helpless -> RE: AO Thoughts (1/30/2009 10:15:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

To reinforce these lessons, Stalin instituted dual command, with a Commissar, who had equal rank and authority, for each officer. In its strictest form, no order in the Red Army was valid unless authorised by both the Officer and his Commissar.



I think you are little bit demonizing whole situation.

All what you wrote true (with some explanations) only to initial period of war. Commissars were re-introduced with start of war and been active until the October 1942. They were replaced by "zampolits" which didn't have any influence on army operations. By the end of war Red Army had much more flexible organization and usually commander could have much bugger initiative then their counterparts in Wehrmacht, which went opposite direction by restricting it's commander's in initiative.

I found AO setup in Kharkov quite adequate. But there were zillions examples when RedArmy divisions were retreating by being pushed by Germans, without any consequence for the commanders. IIRC, in game if AO restriction applied unit cannot retreat to the favorable direction.

P.S. Here is the list of Soviet generals and admirals died during the war period - http://www.rkka.ru/handbook/personal/died.rtf. A big part of them died or been captured in the pockets.




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