3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945



Message

mikeg1218 -> 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 3:50:03 AM)

While playing my somewhat extended tutorial and making landings on Siapan I found my AP's,AK's and LSD,s seemed to be taking more damage then I would expect, pretty much on a par with the LST's. This from three and five inch guns with the ships anchored out near the end of the range for the five inch gun. After seeing the amount of research that has gone into the game I'll except that whatever logarithm used is accurate but while going through the manual I'm getting a bit confused.

I'm assuming from reading that the Mike and Papa boats are generically labeled barges and there is some wordage about building them in port or on the transports if the supplies are available. Why or more likely what am I misunderstanding.

Thanks
MikeG



Feinder -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 5:02:07 AM)

The damage model is a somewhat lacking.  AP/AK etc. can take a LOT of pounding before going down (just wait until you have a full deck-load of SBDs drop 18x 1000# bombs onto AK, and it still takes 2x days to sink).

Having played far too many hours of this game, "the damage works itself out", alto it generally takes much longer for the fatal event to play out.  Example, it generall only takes 1, maybe 2 torps, or 2x 500# bombs to sink an AK.  However, because of the foibles of the damage model, that AK will take 3 or 4 days to sink from those hits.  However, most likely, that same ship will take 15 more bomb hits and 30 shell hits.  Giving the impression that all that extra fire-power is necessary to put the ship down.  It would have (probably) gone down with the first 2x 500# hits, but
1.  The immediate damage is not as substantial, and it takes much longer for the effect to play out (several days).
2.  The target selection routines are fairly inept at deciding "what's already a goner", and will continue to fixate on a single target that is already dead (meanwhile ignoring other targets in the TF).

-F-



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 2:48:58 PM)

To be honest even off the beach and at the outer limits of three and five inch gun range I would expect a thin skinned anchored target with all it's main cargo hatches wide ass open to take some hits from shore batteries when they could spare the time from shooting at the waves of landing craft and that those hits could cause some serious damage.

What I am asking about is the whole barge/LC thing. These are the weapons of the gator navy and come as factory standard equipment for AP's and AK's so do I have to "create" them as barges initially on ship or base or are they modeled in such a way, now that I think of it, that I have to build them to make up for combat losses which are showing up as system problems?. Note here, it would be impossible to "build" even a papa boat let alone a mike boat on an AP or AK. Repair yes, build no.

MikeG



2ndACR -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 3:00:58 PM)

Actual landing craft are abstracted........I think you are reffering to the Higgins boats etc.

You can get some small LCI/LCM (barges) which can be used to transport combat units, but they are extremely short legged and will have to be "milk cowed" to the landing site.

You will get better landing craft (LST etc) later in the war.

CD can and is a major pain........Best way is bombard, bombard, bombard from both the sea and the air.......Prep for the assault (not LCU prep) to take less losses from CD guns. This is just one of the sacrifices that just had to be made.



crsutton -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 3:14:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeg1218

To be honest even off the beach and at the outer limits of three and five inch gun range I would expect a thin skinned anchored target with all it's main cargo hatches wide ass open to take some hits from shore batteries when they could spare the time from shooting at the waves of landing craft and that those hits could cause some serious damage.

What I am asking about is the whole barge/LC thing. These are the weapons of the gator navy and come as factory standard equipment for AP's and AK's so do I have to "create" them as barges initially on ship or base or are they modeled in such a way, now that I think of it, that I have to build them to make up for combat losses which are showing up as system problems?. Note here, it would be impossible to "build" even a papa boat let alone a mike boat on an AP or AK. Repair yes, build no.

MikeG



Well, I was just reading about the Sicily landings and all AK and AP type ships were six miles or more off shore. Really not a feasable range for smaller caliber guns. I assume other landings would also set these ships far out of harms way.

Landing craft, should however take a severe pounding if there area a lot of smaller caliber guns that have not been suppressed.



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 4:09:46 PM)

Well, that is kind of what is making me wonder. LCM's (mike boats) were carried by AK's and AP's while larger craft of the type were carried in the well decks of the LSD's IE LCU's) and LCI's were actually ships in their own right. I'm actually surprised the Higgins boats would be considered in an abstract form since without them the troops would have had to have swum ashore after jumping from the main deck or lowering themselves into the water from the landing nets. Attrition through damage and sinking of the landing craft would have seriously impacted the effectiveness of those ships which is why I wasn't overly concerned with what damage the ships took since, on thinking on it, I sort of melded it in with system damage to the ship itself.

That however brings me back to the original question on "building barges" which the manual seems equate barges and Higgins boats as the same animal to be built on a ship. Frankly you'd be hard pressed to find the space to build a canoe on one of those gator freighters.

MikeG



Panther Bait -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 4:24:14 PM)

The PT/barge "building" process is abstracted as well.  These boats are not being literally assembled from raw components on the freighter.  When you "build" PTs/barges at a destination using abstracted supply on the AK, it is assumed that PTs/barges were loaded already complete at the originating port and were carried on-board the AK.  When they are "built" at the destination, they are really only being offloaded and placed in the water.

Now obviously because of the abstract nature of supply, theoretically every ship as a few spare barges/PTs sitting on deck because you basically decide to build them when they off-load, not when they load.  However, that is really happening with all types of supplies, since no matter what is needed (bullets, food, medicine, gasoline, etc.) the freighter that shows up at any given port always has "just what you need" on it.

Mike



2ndACR -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 4:24:38 PM)

They are not built on ships per se........it basically abstracts that the barges themselve were carried by a cargo ship and placed at the port........also note.......you only get so many, but for the life of me, I cannot tell you how many or how often you will get them.

You can see if you have any avail by looking at the Ship Avail screen on the lower right corner.........right where PT boats are listed.



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 4:34:47 PM)


[/quote]

Well, I was just reading about the Sicily landings and all AK and AP type ships were six miles or more off shore. Really not a feasable range for smaller caliber guns. I assume other landings would also set these ships far out of harms way.

Landing craft, should however take a severe pounding if there area a lot of smaller caliber guns that have not been suppressed.

[/quote]

The amount of damage my AK, AP, and LSD's were taking was pretty much what got me looking into the whole landing craft thing. However, and to be fair, the range of a dual purpose 5"/38 was around ten miles so, while I expect such guns to be more occupied by trying to stop the landing craft rather then ranging shots out to the transports, it is within reason that some damage, even serious damage, could be caused to anchored thin skinned targets with all their main hatches wide open. While I may have a little problem with those ships taking as much damage as the LST's I'm happy to accept some ship system damage to damage and sinking of those ships landing craft.

But that still leaves me puzzled by the manual and it's equating barges to Mike and Papa boats to be built on the transports and just what is happening to those landing craft and should I be worried about building them.

All in all six miles makes for a long swim for a fully loaded Marine and underestimating or under portraying the importance of the Higgins boats seems a little shaky to me. In the category of weapons they played a hell of a lot more important part of the pacific war then the 18"er's of the Yamato did, just ask D. D. Eisenhower.

I really don't want to start a shooting war over the whole thing, I just want to understand what is actually happeing.

MikeG.



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 4:47:26 PM)

OK, so, to both Panther Bait and 2nd ACR, the Higgins boats are there as they should be but, Panther Bait, do you mean I should be "building" them to reflect putting them into the water when I reach the assault location or can I just ignore the whole thing and it gets done anyway, in an abstract form of course? 

The trouble with abstracts is that they are so abstract sometimes they are hard to see. [:)]

Thanks
MIkeG



bradfordkay -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 5:03:13 PM)

The one problem with the way that WITP handles the small landing craft is that there is no way to "build" (launch) them on the spot and then load them with troops. So if your amphibious landing is a long distance one (troops loaded in Pearl Harbor to be landed at Wake Is, for example), you either have to load them into the small landing craft at the port of origin and slowly marshall them across the ocean or you have to accept the landing routine at the base with the "imaginary" landing craft.

Later in the war the allies get a good many of the AKAs - assault landing ships that have smaller capacity so that they unload more quickly. These are the preferred ships to use in an invasion.



2ndACR -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 5:46:00 PM)

Bradford pretty much answered that question. Takes getting used to, but it works.



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 6:04:16 PM)

Ok, thank you all.

I'm almost there, final question is does all that mean I should be "building" them to off load them for the assault? If so they really have to get some better wording in the manual.

MikeG



Feinder -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 6:25:42 PM)

No.

You "build" them at or near a base that is near your target.  Once built, you can load your troops onto the LC* and then move them to their target.  But when you "build" them from your AK or base supply, they will be empty.  You have to load them.

Also to watch for, when you build them from an AK - The home base of the newly created LC* will have the same home port as TF and no destination hex.  So if your TF has driven 10 hexes from Noumea, and you build your barges, they'll turn around and head back to Noumea if you don't give them a new home/destination.

-F-



bradfordkay -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/2/2009 9:52:39 PM)

The deal is, they can only load troops that are on the ground at the base where the barges/landing craft are at the moment. They can not load troops that are already loaded onto another ship, so creating them a hex shy of the destination and then trying to load them from larger ships does not work - at least I never figured out a way to make that work.



Panther Bait -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/3/2009 3:11:32 PM)

The barges you "build" from AKs are not the landing craft already associated with amphibious ships.  These barges (Higgins Boats or LVTs or whatever) are not directly present in the game and abstracted into the AKs/APs (unfortunately in WitP-1 essentially all AKs/APs are amphibious transports with equal numbers of landing craft, from what I understand, WitP-AE will correct this).  The barges you build are independent barges used for local transport.

They are to represent uses like the independent barges that the Japanese used to transport supplies and men from shore-to-shore over short distances in the SWPAC/SOPAC areas.  IIRC, the US Army's also had a small fleet of landing craft that they used for the same purpose in New Guinea, independent barges could represent those as well.



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/3/2009 5:18:03 PM)

Ok, now I'm a happy camper agaiin,

My Thanks to all of you
MikeG



crsutton -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/3/2009 7:57:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeg1218




Well, I was just reading about the Sicily landings and all AK and AP type ships were six miles or more off shore. Really not a feasable range for smaller caliber guns. I assume other landings would also set these ships far out of harms way.

Landing craft, should however take a severe pounding if there area a lot of smaller caliber guns that have not been suppressed.



The amount of damage my AK, AP, and LSD's were taking was pretty much what got me looking into the whole landing craft thing. However, and to be fair, the range of a dual purpose 5"/38 was around ten miles so, while I expect such guns to be more occupied by trying to stop the landing craft rather then ranging shots out to the transports, it is within reason that some damage, even serious damage, could be caused to anchored thin skinned targets with all their main hatches wide open. While I may have a little problem with those ships taking as much damage as the LST's I'm happy to accept some ship system damage to damage and sinking of those ships landing craft.

But that still leaves me puzzled by the manual and it's equating barges to Mike and Papa boats to be built on the transports and just what is happening to those landing craft and should I be worried about building them.

All in all six miles makes for a long swim for a fully loaded Marine and underestimating or under portraying the importance of the Higgins boats seems a little shaky to me. In the category of weapons they played a hell of a lot more important part of the pacific war then the 18"er's of the Yamato did, just ask D. D. Eisenhower.

I really don't want to start a shooting war over the whole thing, I just want to understand what is actually happeing.

MikeG.



You are right about the DP 5 inch gun but that is under optimal conditions. I doubt that you would find similar guns in most shore defenses. Of couse there are many varieties but most shore guns were casemated and set up for direct fire. They also tended to be older more obsolete guns with primitive fire control and should not be compared to modern shipboard guns that benefited from radar and sophisticated fire control and targeting systems. This is expecially true of the Japanese. Factor in other conditions such as visability (lots of haze and fog near beaches) and I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that six miles is pretty far off for your average small costal gun to have much effect. None the less, my point was that the allies tended to park invasion AKs and APs out of range of smaller guns-be it six miles or ten.

But in the game, the APs and Aks can get pretty beat up by small guns. No biggie though. I can live with that.



John Lansford -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/3/2009 8:03:33 PM)

Mike,

The barges that you "build" aren't the ones that ferry troops from the AK/AP ships.  They are independent craft that you can use to shuttle troops/supplies between nearby bases.  The assault boats the AK/AP ships used do not appear in the game but are assumed to be used in amphibious assaults.

BTW, if you want to reduce the damage your transports take during an amphibious assault, put some bigger warships (cruisers usually) in the transport TF along with some DD's.  The CD guns will tend to fire at them and leave your transports alone.



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/3/2009 8:30:25 PM)

Now don't get me wrong, I agree and just used the dual purpose 5"/38 range as an example that damage to an assault vessel anchored at six miles was withing the realm of possibility. After all if you throw enough ordinance at something your bound to get lucky.

Kind of reminds me of when I was really young and dumb and watched WWII movies. Even them I couldn't help feeling sympathy for the troops in a landing craft if there happened to be a machine gun situated where it had a clean shot when the ramp went down.

When I was merely young and dumb I found myself in one of those boats looking down the line of departure and realizing that for the next couple of long slow thousand yards the only person around presenting an individual target was the boats coxswains with no where to go. Even though there wasn't anyone shooting at me it gave me a bit of a chill thinking the same thing. Throw enough lead in my direction and someone was bound to get lucky.

Take care
MikeG



mikeg1218 -> RE: 3'' & 5" damage to AP's AK's and LSD's and barges (2/3/2009 8:31:53 PM)

Thanks John

I really appreciate all the others who replied but that reply pretty much summed up the answer I was looking for.

MikeG



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.03125