whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (Full Version)

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cato13 -> whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 11:25:23 AM)

so there i was, tryin to figure out why my opponents betty's could raid noumea from guadalcanal while my b17's were out of range to return the favour. i had a look at the range and it seemed very short. so i then looked up the b17 wiki and was surprised to see that the ranges and bomb loads for all the b series of bombers are way shorter and less.

actual in witp

b17 (6000lb bombload) = 2000 miles 800 (1500lb)
b24 (2700ib) = 1200 860 (2000lb)
b29 combat range = 3250 1620

why have the allied bombers beeen nerfed so badly? b17's were flyin raids deep into germany in ww2 yet in witp they wont fly the 950 miles or due to range![&:]

what gives?




Kingfisher -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 12:29:32 PM)

Distance from London to Berlin is less than 600 miles.
To Warsaw about 900 miles.

From Noumea to Honiara (present day Matanikua) is 986 miles.



cato13 -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 5:25:21 PM)

yep i had at look at the distances and your right, it just seems odd a that betty which is a 2 engine bomber can fly further than a b17.  guess the old b17's werent very fuel efficient.




2ndACR -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 5:47:58 PM)

The Betty was a flying gas tank.............lighter and a whole lot less armored. As in basically none.

B17 was heavily armored, armed and carried much bigger payload.



Dili -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 7:17:35 PM)

I have for
B-17A w/2400lb bombs 1500miles range at 238mph
B-17G w/4000lb bombs 1850miles range at 211mph in 1943.



Q-Ball -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 8:51:56 PM)

Just put some CAP up over your base though.

Unescorted Bettys are mincemeat to any Allied Fighter.

Unescorted B-17s and B-24s, on the other hand, do fine against lessor Japanese fighters.



vettim89 -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 9:19:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

I have for
B-17A w/2400lb bombs 1500miles range at 238mph
B-17G w/4000lb bombs 1850miles range at 211mph in 1943.


WItP use NM not statute miles. Most references whether they be internet or printed will give ranges in statute miles. So 1500 SM is 1320 NM (multiply SM by 0.88) which works out to an eleven hex range which by golly is exactly the base range of a B-17E in at least Big B 1.4 (the mod I play). The 1850 figure works out to 13 hexes but the -G was never sent to the Pacific. In fact the B-17 was slowly phased out in 1943 and 1944 of all PTO BG's. It was replaced with the B-24J which did have a longer range.

I would argue the B-24 is messed up becasue B-24J flew from Darwin to Balikpaypan to hit the refineries there. Thats over 20 hexes IIRC



Dili -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/2/2009 11:50:51 PM)

I was just giving information, but thanks for your point about miles.


quote:

I would argue the B-24 is messed up becasue B-24J flew from Darwin to Balikpaypan to hit the refineries there. Thats over 20 hexes IIRC


It is impossible to have all flexibility of a plane range in game. If the B-24 went there it could have be due to fact that bomb load was only a couple of incendiaries or was overweight with fuel or both. An exageration to make my point: a B-29 with only a 200lb bomb load would have an enormous range.



rtrapasso -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/3/2009 1:06:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

I was just giving information, but thanks for your point about miles.


quote:

I would argue the B-24 is messed up becasue B-24J flew from Darwin to Balikpaypan to hit the refineries there. Thats over 20 hexes IIRC


It is impossible to have all flexibility of a plane range in game. If the B-24 went there it could have be due to fact that bomb load was only a couple of incendiaries or was overweight with fuel or both. An exageration to make my point: a B-29 with only a 200lb bomb load would have an enormous range.

iirc, there were some B-24 missions that last >24 hours with HUGE ranges (around 2K miles, iirc.) Alas, with 1 day turn, WITP can't model this since you'd still be on a return leg when the turn changed...[X(]



vettim89 -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/3/2009 2:21:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

I was just giving information, but thanks for your point about miles.


quote:

I would argue the B-24 is messed up becasue B-24J flew from Darwin to Balikpaypan to hit the refineries there. Thats over 20 hexes IIRC


It is impossible to have all flexibility of a plane range in game. If the B-24 went there it could have be due to fact that bomb load was only a couple of incendiaries or was overweight with fuel or both. An exageration to make my point: a B-29 with only a 200lb bomb load would have an enormous range.


Agreed. Range/payload may not be truly linear, but it does have a linear relationship. Other factors play in too like terrain. For example in ETO, the 4E's took off and formed up over southern England and the channel. You couldn't do this out of say PM as the aircraft had to climb to about 15,000 feet before they could turn away from base to clear the Owen-Stanley Mountains.



jwilkerson -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/3/2009 2:35:56 AM)

Right the Biak and Nemfoor B-24 missions (7 multi-group missions) against Balikpapan are tough to replicate in WITP.

In AE you will find the ranges of the 4EB are effectively extended.




Dili -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/3/2009 9:22:42 PM)

It is relatively easy to make this calculations if we have a reference of fuel weight Vs bomb load assuming that maximum all up weight is respected, something that in one/off missions doesn't often happen. Generalising if we don't go over maximum fuel weight possible we can take a 500lb bomb and put 500lb more fuel.



ny59giants -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/3/2009 9:59:50 PM)

If you want to play a mod with longer ranges for your Allied 4e bombers and others, then try RHS. I have B-17E/F with ranges set for 18/24 and B-24D/E/F with ranges of 24/32. You get a few squadrons with 1000lb AP bomb loads -  6 on B-17s and 8 on B-24s. I had the B-17s hit Menado (Celebes) from Darwin (range 18) and put 4 x 1000AP bombs in an AK. Still waiting to cross swords with KB. [:D]



herwin -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/3/2009 10:19:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

If you want to play a mod with longer ranges for your Allied 4e bombers and others, then try RHS. I have B-17E/F with ranges set for 18/24 and B-24D/E/F with ranges of 24/32. You get a few squadrons with 1000lb AP bomb loads -  6 on B-17s and 8 on B-24s. I had the B-17s hit Menado (Celebes) from Darwin (range 18) and put 4 x 1000AP bombs in an AK. Still waiting to cross swords with KB. [:D]


That's what the Ki44s are for...



engineer -> RE: whats with b17, b24 and b29 short ranges? (2/3/2009 11:21:05 PM)

The USN Historical Center has some good info on the Navy aircraft with the various configurations (ferry, bomb, escort, etc.).  Typical mission profiles called for warm-ups, take-off, ascent to 15,000 feet to fly to the target, a budget for combat in the target area, descent to low altitude for the return and landing with a 20% fuel reserve.  Patrol planes had a lower altitude profile.

Interestingly, the PV-1 has a 6x500 lb internal load for normal range missions but for extended range missions, it has 2x1000 lb lb bombs on the wing hard points and an auxiliary fuel tank in the bomb bay. 

By and large, the stock WitP ranges are a little short compared to that source, but the F4U and PV-1 are significantly short.  The naval C-47 is also short, but most of the mission information there cuts the payload to just under 6000 lbs. 



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