Zones and coverage (Full Version)

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mudrick -> Zones and coverage (2/3/2009 5:33:10 PM)

It would be nice if this was cleaned up a bit.

1. M2M, If the offense comes out and there is an uncovered WR, one of the defenders in double coverage should move over to cover. Or have someone in zone move over.

2. Zones. One WR should not be able to clear out an entire side of the defense. One idea is not not allow a WR to activate more than 1 zone. That's probably the easiest way.

Another idea is to make it so the defense counts. LB and S in zone on the right. LB picks up the first guy and the S picks up any other going through his zone. If no other, help out elsewhere. This would of course require the AI to see the paths of the WR's, count and distribute. I think it would do wonders for this game.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/3/2009 7:57:23 PM)

quote:

mudrick stated: It would be nice if this was cleaned up a bit.

1. M2M, If the offense comes out and there is an uncovered WR, one of the defenders in double coverage should move over to cover. Or have someone in zone move over.


Are you having a problem with this? One reason we pushed to have the ability to set defenses by offensive personnel was to keep this type of thing from happening.

quote:

2. Zones. One WR should not be able to clear out an entire side of the defense. One idea is not not allow a WR to activate more than 1 zone. That's probably the easiest way.


The AI is supposed to release the receiver into the deep zone if there is a defender playing that zone. It doesn't always work that way, but I have found that testing defenses against many offensive plays can help get that sorted out.

The defense will not always get it right, but that's how it is in a real football game.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/8/2009 7:32:43 PM)

quote:

1. M2M, If the offense comes out and there is an uncovered WR, one of the defenders in double coverage should move over to cover. Or have someone in zone move over.


This is why playbooks and gameplans are critical.  One reason I asked David to both show the defense what the offensive personnel is for human play (which was done way back in 1.2 as I recall) and allow the gameplan to set up defenses by personnel for CPU play was to make sure that these type of mismatches did not happen often.

One can also use short Zone or Read commands to help cover an extra receiver in multiple use defensive plays.

quote:

2. Zones. One WR should not be able to clear out an entire side of the defense. One idea is not not allow a WR to activate more than 1 zone. That's probably the easiest way.


I just went back and tested some defenses, and it looks like the zones work as they should.  How do you set up your zones?



mudrick -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/8/2009 7:56:25 PM)

The zones do work like you say most of the times.  The problem is when there is a play that has a WR go upfield and a TE loop around to the sideline.  Even if the LB lets the WR go, he does not see the TE or RB that is running parallel to the LOS then upfield until it is too late. 

And what if 3 guys go out there?  The 3rd should not be wide open 40 yards downfield.  That is all i'm saying.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/8/2009 8:06:52 PM)

I tested a 3-4 Deep Zone 3 defensive play against the 5 receiver Hail Mary, and none of the receivers were open deep downfield.

A defense can have problems with clearing routes, but play design can help.  How do you stack your zones for depth coverage?  Do you transition from one zone into another?

If three go deep on one side, make sure the cover safety is deep enough, and blitz the stuffing out of the quarterback. [:)]



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/8/2009 8:16:21 PM)

quote:

The problem is when there is a play that has a WR go upfield and a TE loop around to the sideline.  Even if the LB lets the WR go, he does not see the TE or RB that is running parallel to the LOS then upfield until it is too late.


You mean the TE is dropping back and running parallel to the LOS and then crossing over in the flats?  Yes, if the zone was cleared, it can be a problem.  It is a good idea to keep a linebacker in Read to combat that sort of thing.  One can also set up short outside zones in the flats.



mudrick -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/9/2009 4:22:30 PM)

This is why i suggested a different system. 

You know how the DB's are already standing where the WRs are going to line up?  Before the WRs even get to the line, the DB's are waiting exactly in the right spot.  They also should see paths and maybe adjust a zone.  No one is saying they have to be perfect or cover perfect, but they should have a clue.  Asking too much? Maybe.

Would it also be too much to ask the DB's to NOT run to the catch circle and instead run to the WR?  It appears they run to and with the WR until the ball is thrown, then they run to the catch circle.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/9/2009 10:36:03 PM)

quote:

You know how the DB's are already standing where the WRs are going to line up? Before the WRs even get to the line, the DB's are waiting exactly in the right spot. They also should see paths and maybe adjust a zone. No one is saying they have to be perfect or cover perfect, but they should have a clue. Asking too much? Maybe.


I understand your point, but one has to ask if it is realistic for the defender to know what the receivers' pass patterns are. There are times when a defender can jump a pattern if he recognizes the play from game film, but knowing the patterns and plays ahead of time is something that only the Patriots and maybe the Giants do.

Colts, Vikings, and Bucs fans can attest to how frustrating it is to watch a Cover 2 zone get eaten up from the 30 to the 30. Zone defenses have advantages, but on the spot close coverage is not one of them. When the zones compact, they stiffen up, and that allows the line to get more pressure and cause quarterback mistakes.

One also has to ask how tough we actually want the AI to be? Do we want 10-9 scores often? In beta, I had always stated that the closer the outcomes to real world results would be best, and I know that Redwolf and others have stated that on this board as well, but there are many game players that want a game to give them a little more yardage and a little more scoring than in the real world. Not 88-67 games like in Madden, but more like 32-24 and similar scores.

quote:

Would it also be too much to ask the DB's to NOT run to the catch circle and instead run to the WR? It appears they run to and with the WR until the ball is thrown, then they run to the catch circle.


Many DB's do play the ball once it is in the air, so it isn't unrealistic for some defenders to run to the catch circle, but it would be nice to be able to have the defenders take the appropriate angle to the receiver if they know they can't get to the ball.



mudrick -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/11/2009 5:13:04 PM)

quote:

I understand your point, but one has to ask if it is realistic for the defender to know what the receivers' pass patterns are. There are times when a defender can jump a pattern if he recognizes the play from game film, but knowing the patterns and plays ahead of time is something that only the Patriots and maybe the Giants do.


I knew you would say this :).  I am not saying they have to stick the WR's like glue.  But it is realistic that a defender can see a WR running a route.  Or notice that they are outnumbered on one side before the snap.  Usually a S moves into m2m.  But in the NFL the QB doesn't usually have the time for long developing plays.

For the most part it works well.  I have a league set up where the better teams do not always win.  There are many upsets.  Scores can range from 45-41 to 10-3.  To me, that was important.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/11/2009 5:58:49 PM)

quote:

I knew you would say this :).  I am not saying they have to stick the WR's like glue.  But it is realistic that a defender can see a WR running a route.


I thought you'd know that I would say that.  Part of having a good conversation is allowing the other party to respond and build on that.

Do you not see your zones having well enough coverage to at least put a defender on a body?

Defenses are much more difficult to design than offenses, but there are many tools in the PDS to do it.  There are also some things that one learns to avoid like man coverage that splits the defenders into backfield and non-backfield unless the defense is situation specific.

Like the real game, there are always trade offs.  Double up on a receiver and leave the ground game open; key the quarterback and lose a zone defender.

quote:

Or notice that they are outnumbered on one side before the snap.


When in man coverage, the game counts off however one sets up the coverage.  Mixed coverage is a little more difficult, and zones are as well.  The scheme (Tampa 2, 46, ...) should be reflected in the play design, and the play design (reactive, aggressive, situational, ...) should be reflected in the zones.  One may even set up mid and deep zones that allow open flats for 3rd and long plays, as long as the coverage can come up and make the play.

quote:

For the most part it works well.  I have a league set up where the better teams do not always win.  There are many upsets.  Scores can range from 45-41 to 10-3.  To me, that was important.


I agree.  Game variation is critical to a simulation.  The biggest thing that differentiates Maximum Football with text based sims like Front Office Football is that each play actually plays out on the field in 3D mode.  Text based sims basically reverse engineer the statistical outcome that they want and create an engine to get those results.  It is much more difficult to start with the players and reach results based on playbooks and schemes.  That is no knock on Front Office Football, as it is a nice game, but they don't do the same thing.

The sim game is different, as it doesn't play out the 3D game in the same way.  It was never meant to supplant the 3D game; it was meant as a way to play out games in a league that the owner did not have the time to do.  Getting results that match the 3D gameplay can be a task in itself, because a change in playbooks can affect the 3D outcomes greatly.




mudrick -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/12/2009 5:40:10 PM)

Maybe i do need to work on D's a bit more.  I do seem to have trouble with it.  I just get aggravated when i see a safty drop back and he does not see an open man by the sideline.

A good feature for LB's would be to give them logic that says......1st out of the backfield, 2nd out of the backfield ect....This way if the RB goes out for a pass, the LB has him.  If he does not and stays in to block, the LB can drop into zone, blitz, or whatever else. 



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (2/13/2009 3:47:56 AM)

quote:

Maybe i do need to work on D's a bit more.  I do seem to have trouble with it.  I just get aggravated when i see a safty drop back and he does not see an open man by the sideline.


Do your zones extend to the sideline?

The PDS is literal, the zones have to extend out to the sideline to get coverage.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (4/2/2009 2:42:48 PM)

quote:

A good feature for LB's would be to give them logic that says......1st out of the backfield, 2nd out of the backfield ect....This way if the RB goes out for a pass, the LB has him.  If he does not and stays in to block, the LB can drop into zone, blitz, or whatever else.


If you worry about the potential of a back coming out, and you wish to provide some coverage with the linebacker, you can either give him a Read command, have him Key the back, or create a short delayed Zone for the linebacker to cover.  There are advantages to each and disadvantages as well.

Note here that the Key command was changed a bit by my request at the end of 2.2 development to allow the defender to cover the keyed player against the pass if the player comes out of the backfield.  In prior versions, that defender was pretty much a zombie if the keyed player did not rush the ball.  I'm glad David got that change in.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (9/17/2010 6:02:02 AM)

quote:

mudrick stated: You know how the DB's are already standing where the WRs are going to line up?  Before the WRs even get to the line, the DB's are waiting exactly in the right spot.  They also should see paths and maybe adjust a zone.  No one is saying they have to be perfect or cover perfect, but they should have a clue.  Asking too much? Maybe.


The defense sets up before the offense so that the defense is not all out of place prior to the snap. If they are in Man, they will line up on the receiver spot.

Seeing paths and adjusting zones is not really how it is done in real world football. A real world defensive coordinator with rip and new butthole in a defender that freelances his zone. That stated, I understand your point: the AI should see more.

It is really difficult to program an AI that does well without having it do too well. I mean, we really do not want to see games with 6-3 scores because the defensive AI is too good. What we try to do is have a balance, and in Maximum Football, part of that balance comes from play design.

I mentioned in an earlier post about delayed zones. A delayed zone is a zone covered after the initial receiver would have likely run his pattern through it. If the safety is covering deep, run a linebacker out into the flats to cover a small zone. If the offensive play is designed to clear the zone, the linebacker will come to the rescue unless he is over-matched in skill.

quote:

Would it also be too much to ask the DB's to NOT run to the catch circle and instead run to the WR?  It appears they run to and with the WR until the ball is thrown, then they run to the catch circle.


My guess is that the defenders are programmed to react to the ball in the air. There is not much we can do about that at this time.



mudrick -> RE: Zones and coverage (9/17/2010 4:17:29 PM)

Lets forget real world when concerning AI. The object is to immitate real world using any means necessary.

What I suggested only furthers this end. It would NOT cause lower scores. All it would do is ensure every eligible player is "seen" by the defense. You don't need guys breaking zones and running free downfield to ensure normal scores.

You know as well as I do in this game you can cover a WR and still not be in position to stop the completion. All I suggested was that the game recognize an uncovered man or a stacked side of the offense. Simply allowing them to adjust. That doesn't mean they will be successful. But it will give the appearence that the D knows what they are doing! You can still use variables to see how quickly they react.

I also notice something missing in the D options that was also missing in Fbpro. You can't give a LB "First out of the backfield" or "2nd out of the backfield" and so on...........That limits your options. In other words a LB has that logic.......if the RB chooses to pass block he would default to a zone or read....or blitz......But again.....the INT rating can be a variable here.



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (9/17/2010 11:06:04 PM)

quote:

You know as well as I do in this game you can cover a WR and still not be in position to stop the completion. All I suggested was that the game recognize an uncovered man or a stacked side of the offense. Simply allowing them to adjust. That doesn't mean they will be successful. But it will give the appearance that the D knows what they are doing! You can still use variables to see how quickly they react.


I try to set up my basic defenses so the defenders can try to cover against most formations.  Pro, Ace, Trips, and other offensive packages and formations are covered pretty well, but the defenses do not always work, as it should be.  When it comes to four or five receivers, there are options for using nickel and dime packages to counter them.  Those are set for coverage and depth and they work pretty well.

How deep do you set your safety zones in cover 2 or cover 3?  How large are your zones in cover 2?  How do you set your coverage mixes (over, under, deep)?  Do you bump at the line and put speed on speed?

If you want defenders that read and react, more defenders should be given the READ command.  Having a safety or linebacker in READ is like a wild card against a lot off offensive tricks.  Of course, READ can be tricked as well, but that is the nature of the game.

quote:

I also notice something missing in the D options that was also missing in Fbpro. You can't give a LB "First out of the backfield" or "2nd out of the backfield" and so on...........That limits your options. In other words a LB has that logic.......if the RB chooses to pass block he would default to a zone or read....or blitz......But again.....the INT rating can be a variable here.


I wanted defenders to have gap responsibilities as an option that would have them check their gaps and then drop back into a zone.  Considering what advancements had already been done on the defense, and how little time David had, it was not something I championed in beta.

I also would have liked defensive and offensive audibles to be tied to the formation.  That would have given a much greater variety of plays available strategically, and would have allowed for last second changes by the defense to cover some problem with the play called.  That was a lot to ask, but it really needed to be done.

I did press for pre-snap motion by the defense for fake and real blitzes, and that was on the to-do list for 3.0.



mudrick -> RE: Zones and coverage (9/22/2010 11:57:11 PM)

Oh man, I had forgotten I had replied to your reply to my post.[:'(]

Something you said hit it right on the nose. What I was basically calling for was a much more intelligent "Read" defense. And players being able to "Read" no matter what defense they are in under an emergency situation. I was merely suggesting a means to achieve that end.

Gap responsibilities would have been good. Anything to give the LBs a double task.

But overall I feel the defense works quite well none the less. I stopped making plays when I saw Hack pump out all of those plays and profiles. He has created all that I will ever require in this game. [;)]



Marauders -> RE: Zones and coverage (5/28/2011 10:24:24 PM)

quote:

Lets forget real world when concerning AI. The object is to imitate real world using any means necessary.

When the game went gold, there were some really weird defensive plays that I had created to counter some AI problems.  David made some nice defensive changes afterward, so many were no longer needed, but anyone who knows playbook design would likely have scratched their heads seeing the plays like those in the game.

quote:

What I suggested only furthers this end. It would NOT cause lower scores. All it would do is ensure every eligible player is "seen" by the defense. You don't need guys breaking zones and running free downfield to ensure normal scores.

Players do break zones in real games, but I understand your point.  As far as I know, players do react once the ball is across the LOS, but they do their assigned tasks before that.  Having a linebacker or safety on READ does help. 

quote:

You know as well as I do in this game you can cover a WR and still not be in position to stop the completion. All I suggested was that the game recognize an uncovered man or a stacked side of the offense. Simply allowing them to adjust. That doesn't mean they will be successful. But it will give the appearance that the D knows what they are doing! You can still use variables to see how quickly they react.

The defenders do what is tasked to them.  To design plays, one needs to tinker with the commands and zones to see how the AI reacts and then use that knowledge to design plays.

quote:

I also notice something missing in the D options that was also missing in Fbpro. You can't give a LB "First out of the backfield" or "2nd out of the backfield" and so on...........That limits your options. In other words a LB has that logic.......if the RB chooses to pass block he would default to a zone or read....or blitz......But again.....the INT rating can be a variable here.

As I stated above, it would have been nice to have gap assignments and counting off, but the AI isn't that detailed.  The offensive line does not have it either, so I guess it is fair.

quote:

Something you said hit it right on the nose. What I was basically calling for was a much more intelligent "Read" defense. And players being able to "Read" no matter what defense they are in under an emergency situation. I was merely suggesting a means to achieve that end.

Sometimes the timing makes a difference; as does how zones are stacked.  Defensive plays are, as in real football, more difficult to design than offensive plays.



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