Weapon against fortifications (Full Version)

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Niko -> Weapon against fortifications (10/17/2000 10:34:00 PM)

In a battle against a friend my German forces were assaulting russian positions. His forces were almost completely made of fortifications with a few tanks and aa guns as reserve (Pillboxes and bunkers side by side across the map. What a sight). This is normally not a problem: Just punch through at one point and butcher the rest of them at your leisure. However he had three rows of mines everywhere and I lost most of my engineers removing them. Since tank guns didn't have much effect on most fortifications and infantry without satchel charges didn't have a change against all those machine guns, the battle turned into a massive humiliation. After an hour of expletives I started searching for solution against such underhanded tactics. Found nothing that works. So the question is: Is there commmon WORKING tactic against line of fortifications? Or even better Is there a weapon (any nationality) that relatively easily destroys them? Tank guns don't seem to have any effect even after penetrating armour. I'm grateful for any answers. Even the ones commenting on my obvious lack of tactical ability. NikoV



Desert Fox -> (10/17/2000 10:41:00 PM)

Try heavy artillery. They may not knock out the fort if it is a heavy fort, but they can knock out the mines, and they can suppress the forts in the process. Just keep your forces back and let the arty do the work. And don't forget to use smoke and other such los obscuring methods.



Leibstandarte -> (10/17/2000 11:06:00 PM)

I've found that a ton of smoke coupled with a ton of HEAVY Artillery will normally do the trick. Just make sure you concentrate your assets on one main area to punch through. Over the enemy at your point of decision. ------------------ Cavalry Trooper (8th US) and Grandson of a Leibstandarte Tanker.



Hauptmann6 -> (10/17/2000 11:10:00 PM)

Ok, here is what I have done in the past if I can't go around. Use all of your artillery for a few turns in a 4-5 hex target area around the forts. then change a couple of guns to smoke in the same area. Advance engineers to remove mines. After the mines are cleared advance with flame tanks and engineers with infantry and gun tanks providing fire support. Pull off your art at teh last moment and press your attack preferably against the flank of the fort. It takes alot of time and ammo but it is effective. If you have naval guns(12+ inches) you may make them retreat. HTH Haupt



adantas -> (10/18/2000 12:13:00 AM)

well, in my last engagement against Russians at Kursk scenario I found that Tiger is a very effective weapon against pillbox and bunkers. My tatic was find the weaker point of russian position and than start a concentrate Art fire with my engineers following closer to remove mines and open a path for the tanks. I rush in with few Tigers and started to destroy the pillbox and bunkers with 88 mm's shots against their rears.



Don -> (10/18/2000 2:07:00 AM)

That's a lot of great advice! I would definitely use heavy artillery and smoke. I read about German fortifications in some battle getting hit with SO much artillery that it drove the whole sturcture into the ground to where the gunners could not fire out because the firing hole was now underground! Now that's effective fire! Don



Wild Bill -> (10/18/2000 2:31:00 AM)

At first I was not happy at all with the new fortifications. I felt they were much too difficult. Then I did some research. I found that all fortifications are actually much tougher than what was presented in earlier versions of SP and much more accurate in the current version of SPWAW. That being the case, I I opted for new tactics. I concur with all that was said here. First of all, I bypass all that I can, if they offer no threat to me in my rear. Those that I can't get by I deal with. Normally, I do the following. 1. If I have artillery, hit the fortifications hard to pound them down. Each hit weakens them. 2. I then use smoke to cover my infantry and/or tanks to approach. Note: MOVE THEM CAUTIOUSLY. THis is very important, only one hex at a time. That way they are harder for the enemy to spot. 3. If I have engineers I move them adjacent to the fortifications Why? Engineers detect mines. Sometimes mines are placed to cover the flanks. Engineers get a double shot. By that I mean they first of all have a built-in close assault attack the first time. If that fails, their suppression will be raised to the point that they can't do that. But then the engineers can still fire their weapons, including FTs and Demos. Once you have moved units adjacent to the fortification, don't hit it with artillery or tank fire. While it may do further damage to the fortification, it can also suppress and even kill your own units. Then it become a matter of continued assault until they die. One more thing. Remember caves can only be destroyed by a frontal shot. They can be suppressed somewhat from the side or rear but only killed from the front, or so I have been told. It seems to be true. Some fortifications are stronger than others and require more initial pounding. Any steel or concrete fortification is a tough cookie! Bunkers, caves and rifle pits are a little (I said "a little" [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] ( easier. I hope this helps, Niko...Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Wiseman -> (10/18/2000 5:25:00 AM)

Just a note on caves. I have on many occassions destroyed a cave from the flanks and rears. But history would show that from the front is best. Wiseman



Randy -> (10/18/2000 9:24:00 AM)

During WWII while fighting on Okinawa, the Army devised a tactic called "Blowtorch and Corkscrew". They would first hit the Japanese bunkers with a flamethrower (preferably a flametank), and then hit them with demo/satchel charges from the engineers. I haven't tried this in the game yet, but it is similar to what Wild Bill and the others have suggested. Good luck. Semper Fi Randy



Larry Holt -> (10/18/2000 5:36:00 PM)

As a historical note, I was reading the book "Tank" about a M48 tank unit in Nam. Infantry could not destroy VC bunkers with their organic weapons. In this manner the bunkers were very strong. The tanks worked with infantry to suppress VC bunkers then drove up to them, pointed their 90mm main guns directly into the firing ports and fired. The muzzle blast was indistinguishable from the detonation of ammo inside the bunker. In this manner bunkers are very weak. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Fredde -> (10/18/2000 6:40:00 PM)

Few hints: 1.Pop a smoke just in front of the bunker. This will effectively silence it from firing at anything that's not just in front of it. 2. Heavy 88 mm AA/AT guns or something like it. Place them on a safe distance and watch the bunkers go up in flames. 3. Simply drive straight past mg bunkers (or other forts w/o AT guns) with tanks or spw's loaded with engineers. 4. Knock one out, bypass the rest. 5. If your opponent insist on this tactic, buy special forces/paras and watch his frustration when they turn up behind the bunker line [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Niko -> (10/18/2000 7:15:00 PM)

Thank you for answers everyone. Combination of paratroopers and naval artillery did the trick in rematch. Of course if my opponent had changed tactics on me I would have had some serious problems. Well, he had it coming. I received some weird satisfaction from seeing his precious bunkers and infantry crumble under 16 inch shells. This is propably Freudian.



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