Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (Full Version)

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Dancing Bear -> Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (2/22/2009 2:27:19 PM)

Hi all
Can we move the button that lets Austria select the areas for insurrection corps triggers to the reinforcement phase?
In the diplomacy phase as it is, Austria is unable to react to a new DOW, which is not optimal (similar to the problem we had when the loan corps function was in the diplomacy phase). Also, most of the other troop placement functions are in the reinforcement phase, so intuitively in makes more sense for the trigger areas for these corps to be in the reinforcement phase.
DB.



borner -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (2/22/2009 4:06:11 PM)

Great point!



iamspamus -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (2/23/2009 9:54:58 AM)

Yep. I concur.

Dirty insurrectionists...oh, what? The insurrectionists are on OUR side? Oh, why then they are FINE chaps. Highest caliber. Model citizens...



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (2/23/2009 2:50:59 PM)

How bout adding it as opposed to moving it? (Allow in Diplomacy and Reinforcement)



obsidiandrag -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (2/23/2009 5:48:08 PM)

Also, is it possible to have a popup to let Austria know that the placement has been triggered? I leave watching the AI moves off and have missed it before that they actually came through and I would have been alowed to place them had I known it.



Dancing Bear -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (2/24/2009 3:03:11 AM)

You could do that, but is it not easier just to move it?

What ever is easier for you. I can't see a draw back in having it in both phases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

How botu adding it as opposed to moving it? (Allow in Diplomacy and Reinforcement)





bOrIuM -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/14/2009 5:55:03 PM)

Just saw in my game that insurection can be placed everywhere in Austria, thats ****ing bad as it doesnt represent history and original rule  10.1.4.1, allow them only in  Illyria, Military Border, Transylvania and Hungary



bresh -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/14/2009 7:36:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bOrIuM

Just saw in my game that insurection can be placed everywhere in Austria, thats ****ing bad as it doesnt represent history and original rule  10.1.4.1, allow them only in  Illyria, Military Border, Transylvania and Hungary


I dont agree, unless we implement full insurrection, meaning while each enemy corps moves through these provinces, Austria can stop them, as in Real-EIA.

BOrIuM how they work is a compromise, or you had to play the game online........

I agree, its logical to have it happen in reinforcement phase, im surprised to hear its in diplomacy, didnt we start out with the same problem about lending corps back in 1.01-02 ?

Regards
Bresh



iamspamus -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/16/2009 10:31:53 AM)

Nope. These were corps of hastily raised "local boys" to ward off the evils of the Turkish Empire. They should not be able to be raised in Austria. They should only be activated in the four original provinces (5 now that Hungary is split). I don't have a problem with them being raised by evil Frenchies, Prussians or Russians, but they should only be triggered when they enter the specific provinces.


quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

quote:

ORIGINAL: bOrIuM

Just saw in my game that insurection can be placed everywhere in Austria, thats ****ing bad as it doesnt represent history and original rule  10.1.4.1, allow them only in  Illyria, Military Border, Transylvania and Hungary


I dont agree, unless we implement full insurrection, meaning while each enemy corps moves through these provinces, Austria can stop them, as in Real-EIA.

BOrIuM how they work is a compromise, or you had to play the game online........

I agree, its logical to have it happen in reinforcement phase, im surprised to hear its in diplomacy, didnt we start out with the same problem about lending corps back in 1.01-02 ?

Regards
Bresh




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/16/2009 12:58:28 PM)

The "raised anywhere in Austria" is intentional and was meant to help make up for the lack of interrupt capability that exist in the board game. In the board game the Au player can interrupt an invader at any move. This does not exist in the PC game (For obvious play reasons) so I boosted the areas in Au available for the insurrection units.



iamspamus -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/17/2009 9:14:02 AM)

Ah, OK. I'd still limit their placement to the 4 or 5 listed provinces. It doesn't have to be a city does it, it can be any space in those province, right? If so, I'd still place them in those provinces, then (and I'm hazy here) allowing them to go anywhere after placement. I think that it's an "abuse" to have them placed (specifically) in Vienna, FREX.

What do you other "ol' timers" think?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The "raised anywhere in Austria" is intentional and was meant to help make up for the lack of interrupt capability that exist in the board game. In the board game the Au player can interrupt an invader at any move. This does not exist in the PC game (For obvious play reasons) so I boosted the areas in Au available for the insurrection units.





Ted1066 -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/17/2009 9:49:07 AM)

Yep, I concur. Historically, they're in the game to represent the militias that were raised to fight the Turks. I don't think it makes sense having them show up in the Galicias or Bohemia, but that's just me.

The next question I have, now that I have seen the 1.05 implementation, is what if the invading player does not move through the area selected by the Austrian player?

Cheers,

Ted



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/17/2009 12:01:33 PM)

If they do not move into the trigger are then the insurrection units are not triggered themselves and CANNOT be placed.




Ted1066 -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/17/2009 8:15:57 PM)

That really defeats the purpose of the insurrection corps. There are MANY areas in Austria and extending the insurrection raise to everywhere in Austria turns this process into a very low odds situation.

I would propose going back to the original EiA rules, having Illyria, Military Border, Transylvania and Hungary be the eligible provinces (instead of areas) that the Austrian player selects, and he selects one province per corps (though he could select the same province for both corps). Then, IF the Turkish player (or enemy player entering Austria by one of these insurrection provinces) enters Austria via this insurrection province, the insurrection corps is added to the Austrian force pool for placement next round.

I have to admit that I liked the implementation better of the earlier versions of this game. Playing France, I entered Carinthia while at war with Austria and had insurrection corps appear in Trieste, where I had moved to (all during my land phase). This leads me to believe that putting out the insurrection corps during another players movement phase is possible, so combining the functionality of a province selection system with corps placement during enemy moves would be the best way to recreate the EiA rules, IMO.

Cheers,

Ted



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/18/2009 3:28:36 PM)

Ted:

Actually, we changed to this implementation because of the old implementation (???) which was TERRIBLE and I see that now. It was too open to slaughtering the insurrection corps. 50/50 chance of the corps appearing when invaders were moving in and whern the insurrection corps was placed, it was simply routed by itself. This made the insurrection corps really ineffective. I can tell you that I'm open to tweaks but it will not go back to where it was.




Jimmer -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/18/2009 5:40:26 PM)

Ted, I don't like the compromise, either. But, there is a very good reason for it: Under the old EiA rules, the game would have to stop after Turkey moved EVERY CORPS through ANY SPACE in the insurrection provinces. A corps moves 3 spaces? 3 Checks. Another corps moves the same 3 spaces (to join the army)? Another 3 checks. That's hundreds of checks, each of which requires that Turkey stop his turn and Austria respond.

It's just not workable in a computer game.

This compromise doesn't help much, but it does improve it from the way it was (treat them as regular corps that are only available if one of the provinces has a foreign presense).

Ideally, every possible space in all of the insurrection provinces should have a database of what Austria can do with the ins. corps. I would think that one might say "after two corps have crossed, block the third corps", or something like that. Then, the spaces next to it might read "if the other ins. corps is already on map adjacent to this space, block the next corps that enters."

This is the way humans think. However, as you can see, it becomes very difficult to code. I'm sure Marshall is open to suggestions.



Jimmer -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/18/2009 5:44:25 PM)

There would be another way to implement the original rules (different from my first paragraph above). It's better, but still unwieldy:

After Turkey moves a corps completely, send the turn file to Austria (if the insurrection option exists, i.e. that Austria has one off map and the province is legal). Austria would then have the option of placing the Turkish corps back 1 or 2 steps, along with the insurrection corps, or place it where the enemy corps stopped movement. This would drop the number of possible checks to a dozen or so. Still unwieldy, but perhaps acceptable.

The problem would be having code in place that allows Austria to undo part of an enemy's move.



Ted1066 -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/19/2009 9:45:04 PM)

I agree that implementing the Insurrection corps correctly is difficult, but there needs to be a better balance between the original rules and what there is now.

Marshall, the only purpose for the Insurrection corps WAS to be horribly slaughtered. They interdict Turkish movement - that's it. The Turk moves into Austria and the Austrian player has the opportunity to raise 1 Insurrection corps and halt Turkish movement through that area. If the Turkish player chooses to reinforce that area, the Austrian player then has the opportunity to add the second corps. Or he can do nasty things like allow a single Turkish corps to move 2 or more areas into Austria, and then block every subsequent move. This leaves a lonely Turkish corps stranded and waiting to be annihilated itself. But the fact remains that Insurrection corps are fodder for the Turkish army.

As it stands now, ANY nation invading Austria gives Austria 2 free corps to place wherever they want, and that is too much. I think you should limit the provinces to the original 4 defined in the EiA rules. I don't have a better suggestion for how to handle raising the corps, but I think some limits to the current implementation need to be made. Like I said, the militia is negligible but 6 free Cav is way too much of a bonus.

Related to this, how has the Tyrolean revolt corps been implemented? It DOES work in this way (that is, what is currently implemented for insurrection corps in 1.05.05).

Cheers,

Ted



bresh -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/20/2009 9:46:49 AM)

I dont agree that the Tyrol corps works like its supposed to.

In this version its quite seldom France would select Tyrol to ceede.
Austria is also weakened by 2 less depots, and no special peace condition(required for some Kingdom).

Regards
Bresh



Dancing Bear -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/21/2009 12:10:53 AM)

One easy way round this without getting the Marshall to re-program the game, is for the players in the game to set up a house rule, so that the Austrian play can only select trigger areas with the 4 original provinces. Just set it up with your group of players before hand. That way everyone can get what they want.



bresh -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/21/2009 10:31:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

One easy way round this without getting the Marshall to re-program the game, is for the players in the game to set up a house rule, so that the Austrian play can only select trigger areas with the 4 original provinces. Just set it up with your group of players before hand. That way everyone can get what they want.


I would only use that if Austria got his lost depots back.
But its up to each group.

Regards
Bresh



iamspamus -> RE: Move insurrection corps trigger area button to reinforcement phase (3/22/2009 9:48:24 PM)

Yep, though not just the Turks for EIA. Another idea is to let them advance several spaces and cut off their supply.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ted1066

I agree that implementing the Insurrection corps correctly is difficult, but there needs to be a better balance between the original rules and what there is now.

Marshall, the only purpose for the Insurrection corps WAS to be horribly slaughtered. They interdict Turkish movement - that's it. The Turk moves into Austria and the Austrian player has the opportunity to raise 1 Insurrection corps and halt Turkish movement through that area. If the Turkish player chooses to reinforce that area, the Austrian player then has the opportunity to add the second corps. Or he can do nasty things like allow a single Turkish corps to move 2 or more areas into Austria, and then block every subsequent move. This leaves a lonely Turkish corps stranded and waiting to be annihilated itself. But the fact remains that Insurrection corps are fodder for the Turkish army.

As it stands now, ANY nation invading Austria gives Austria 2 free corps to place wherever they want, and that is too much. I think you should limit the provinces to the original 4 defined in the EiA rules. I don't have a better suggestion for how to handle raising the corps, but I think some limits to the current implementation need to be made. Like I said, the militia is negligible but 6 free Cav is way too much of a bonus.

Related to this, how has the Tyrolean revolt corps been implemented? It DOES work in this way (that is, what is currently implemented for insurrection corps in 1.05.05).

Cheers,

Ted




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