RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (Full Version)

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Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 4:50:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Very cool results.

Question though: I never even thought about this in WITP, but wasn't USS Pennsylvania in dry dock on Dec. 7? I assume dry dock status isn't modeled in AE, or else the Japanese here are using the most-feared-highly-rare air-swimming torpedo. <grin>

I haven't researched her status, but I recall photos of a shattered destroyer sharing the same slip with the BB, both high and dry after the attack.


Dry docks ARE a part of the new repair system (when I get a cripple home, I will put up a screen shot of it) but due to time constraints torpedo attacks dont look at ships in drydock as ineligible targets. Maybe in a patch.



Sarganto -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 4:50:53 PM)

This screams for a second attack at PH.



Dili -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 5:06:15 PM)

quote:

Part B of your question I didnt get to answer. You will see in that screenshot on the far right 2nd paragraph up from the bottom where is says aircraft cap, troop cap, cargo cap, fuel cap. Ships are rated in each category now. Yes, you can put troops into cargo area, or fuel in cargo area, ect just like you could in stock and at the same rates as in WitP.


Thanks for your reply Yamato hugger. Shouldn't troops that go to cabin separated from cargo stores that usually stay on deck?



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 5:30:17 PM)

Not necessarily. Troops can (and did) go into the hold as well. Hammocks are strung up so they can be stacked up just like a troopship but not as efficiently (thats why 1 troops takes up 2 cargo points). By the same token cargo can be jammed into troop spaces but again, not as efficiently thus the reason 1 cargo takes up 2 troops spaces. Neither troops nor cargo can occupy fuel spaces.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 6:45:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Actually 2 of the 6 Kate groups hit the airfield (Shokaku and Zuikaku). This was a "historical" first move.

But on the plus side, look at all the space Im saving him in his repair yards [:)]



then I would say ALL Kates on port attack dropped torps...

not good...


Not to obsess about one combat report but approx. 75-80 hits out of 90-100 port attacking kates isn't particularly credible. I don't think you could form up the entire pacfleet sans ammunition in a single line bow to stern and get that kind of result. Oh well.



JuanG -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 7:10:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Actually 2 of the 6 Kate groups hit the airfield (Shokaku and Zuikaku). This was a "historical" first move.

But on the plus side, look at all the space Im saving him in his repair yards [:)]



then I would say ALL Kates on port attack dropped torps...

not good...


Not to obsess about one combat report but approx. 75-80 hits out of 90-100 port attacking kates isn't particularly credible. I don't think you could form up the entire pacfleet sans ammunition in a single line bow to stern and get that kind of result. Oh well.



I counted 79 hits in that report. As 144 B5N flew, if exactly 4/6 were on Port Attack, that makes 96 torpedoes launched.

Im assuming some of those 79 hits are FOW, but even then, if we go by 60 actual hits, its still a 60-65% hit rate. Impressive.

Also, I note that neither of those two 'lost' CLs were in the actual report, meaning its not that hard to figure out when wrong ships get posted. Same for the 'Colorado' in the sunk ships report, its reported as West Virginia in the combat report.



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 7:29:46 PM)

Just beginning to look at production needs and the first thing that comes to light is port sizes. Honshu is hurting for raw materiel of every kind. It needs 111,400 resources a day 8010 oil a day, and 2155 fuel a day just to drive its industry.

Kyushu has an excess of 25,400r/day and 110o/day. But only 500r a day per port size level and 100 oil/fuel per day per port level can move between the islands.

If you look at the map below, Fukuoka is the major city on the north side of Kyushu (the western most big island) and has a port size of 10. Shimonoseki is the base just east of it on Honshu and it is a level 9. Since the smaller of the 2 is 9, this means this connecting port is a level 9 which means that 4500r per day can flow between these 2 ports and an additional 900 oil or fuel.

Oita is the base on the far east tip of Kyushu it starts as a level 2(1) port. Tokuyama is the port NE of it (shown with the yellow arrow) and is a level 4. Oita can only be built up to level 4 maximum but right now it is only a 2 so improving this port to a level 4 will allow an additional 1000r and 200o to flow between Kyushu and Honshu. So even if you play with base expansions off (like I do), you want to turn this one on to expand to level 4.

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short. Hokkaido has a surplus of 29,100 a day but only a level 5 port connecting to Honshu. This means just shy of 24,000 a day have to be shipped from here as well. Korea/Manchuria/northern China has excesses as well (dont have specific numbers yet but they have a lot) and a good chunk of your remaining 60-65,000 a day can probably be shipped from here. This is going to chew up a lot of your AKs doing this.

The more you expand these connecting ports, the fewer AKs you will need to ship between the islands.



[image]local://upfiles/14252/FB12FC5D3F204FE8ACD8865832CA493C.jpg[/image]



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 7:43:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG

I counted 79 hits in that report. As 144 B5N flew, if exactly 4/6 were on Port Attack, that makes 96 torpedoes launched.

Im assuming some of those 79 hits are FOW, but even then, if we go by 60 actual hits, its still a 60-65% hit rate. Impressive.

Also, I note that neither of those two 'lost' CLs were in the actual report, meaning its not that hard to figure out when wrong ships get posted. Same for the 'Colorado' in the sunk ships report, its reported as West Virginia in the combat report.


90 torpedoes are missing from the supplies on the carriers. Which is nearly a 90% hit ratio. This is the purpose of testing and tweeking [;)]



Caesaren -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 9:11:14 PM)

quote:

Just beginning to look at production needs and the first thing that comes to light is port sizes. Honshu is hurting for raw materiel of every kind. It needs 111,400 resources a day 8010 oil a day, and 2155 fuel a day just to drive its industry.

Kyushu has an excess of 25,400r/day and 110o/day. But only 500r a day per port size level and 100 oil/fuel per day per port level can move between the islands.

If you look at the map below, Fukuoka is the major city on the north side of Kyushu (the western most big island) and has a port size of 10. Shimonoseki is the base just east of it on Honshu and it is a level 9. Since the smaller of the 2 is 9, this means this connecting port is a level 9 which means that 4500r per day can flow between these 2 ports and an additional 900 oil or fuel.

Oita is the base on the far east tip of Kyushu it starts as a level 2(1) port. Tokuyama is the port NE of it (shown with the yellow arrow) and is a level 4. Oita can only be built up to level 4 maximum but right now it is only a 2 so improving this port to a level 4 will allow an additional 1000r and 200o to flow between Kyushu and Honshu. So even if you play with base expansions off (like I do), you want to turn this one on to expand to level 4.

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short. Hokkaido has a surplus of 29,100 a day but only a level 5 port connecting to Honshu. This means just shy of 24,000 a day have to be shipped from here as well. Korea/Manchuria/northern China has excesses as well (dont have specific numbers yet but they have a lot) and a good chunk of your remaining 60-65,000 a day can probably be shipped from here. This is going to chew up a lot of your AKs doing this.

The more you expand these connecting ports, the fewer AKs you will need to ship between the islands.


Will there any help in the game to manage this japanese-island-transports (any list or overview for example) or have the player take every turn a look on the r-level of any island?



Q-Ball -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 9:27:14 PM)

Wow, production looks ALOT more complicated for Japan! And we complain about WITP.....that will look like child's play, it seems, vs. the AE production.

My brain is starting to hurt![X(]



Dili -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 9:47:34 PM)

quote:

Not necessarily. Troops can (and did) go into the hold as well. Hammocks are strung up so they can be stacked up just like a troopship but not as efficiently (thats why 1 troops takes up 2 cargo points). By the same token cargo can be jammed into troop spaces but again, not as efficiently thus the reason 1 cargo takes up 2 troops spaces. Neither troops nor cargo can occupy fuel spaces.


Obvously right, i was simplifying a bit, likewise fuel can go into cargo holds and troop spaces with jerrycans(only used by allies later) but not by game rules. My question was more if the 100 values in screen were cargo and troop points comulative. So the 100+100 means 150 cargo or 150 troops.



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 10:14:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

Not necessarily. Troops can (and did) go into the hold as well. Hammocks are strung up so they can be stacked up just like a troopship but not as efficiently (thats why 1 troops takes up 2 cargo points). By the same token cargo can be jammed into troop spaces but again, not as efficiently thus the reason 1 cargo takes up 2 troops spaces. Neither troops nor cargo can occupy fuel spaces.


Obvously right, i was simplifying a bit, likewise fuel can go into cargo holds and troop spaces with jerrycans(only used by allies later) but not by game rules. My question was more if the 100 values in screen were cargo and troop points comulative. So the 100+100 means 150 cargo or 150 troops.


Or 100 of each, correct. And fuel CAN be carried in cargo/troop spaces. Always could. Oil cant. Never could.



Alikchi2 -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 10:21:17 PM)

Do you use the auto convoy system for this sort of resource management stuff, YH?



Dili -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 10:42:49 PM)

quote:

Or 100 of each, correct. And fuel CAN be carried in cargo/troop spaces. Always could. Oil cant. Never could.


Thanks.



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/24/2009 10:59:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

Do you use the auto convoy system for this sort of resource management stuff, YH?


Yes you can. You can ship resources and oil via auto convoy or even CS convoys (which is the way I would go). I hear auto-convoys are much better than stock, but frankly as an old timer I havent tried it. Stock left too sour of a taste in my mouth for me to trust it.

[image]local://upfiles/14252/8010E709558847D7A3DBA13BE1B11A17.jpg[/image]



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 12:18:46 AM)

Luzon - the plan:

Armored regiments will land first at 3 locations (A) with airbase support companies to provide air cover for the main landings. These units will clear the northern areas.

16th div with air base support and an air flot HQ will land at Iba (B) and push into Clark. Iba is a level 3 airfield and getting a HQ in here will insure maximum numbers of aircraft are in the air. I could put torpedo armed Kates in here also if they are needed.

48th div with a naval HQ and a naval base force will land at "C" which is a level 3 port and will function as my main repair and supply base. The 48th will drive north into Manila. Tankers will also be brought in so that ships based here can refuel.

33rd inf detachment will land at Mauban ("D") and clear southern Luzon.

The objectives for the Luzon invasion are:
1) Eliminate airpower.
2) Eliminate surface naval threat.
3) Provide a solid ASW base.
4) Pin the Phil army down until after the fall of the SRA.

[image]local://upfiles/14252/46F8EF657F794E4CA9591848A97C0780.jpg[/image]



pad152 -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 12:49:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Just beginning to look at production needs and the first thing that comes to light is port sizes. Honshu is hurting for raw materiel of every kind. It needs 111,400 resources a day 8010 oil a day, and 2155 fuel a day just to drive its industry.

Kyushu has an excess of 25,400r/day and 110o/day. But only 500r a day per port size level and 100 oil/fuel per day per port level can move between the islands.

If you look at the map below, Fukuoka is the major city on the north side of Kyushu (the western most big island) and has a port size of 10. Shimonoseki is the base just east of it on Honshu and it is a level 9. Since the smaller of the 2 is 9, this means this connecting port is a level 9 which means that 4500r per day can flow between these 2 ports and an additional 900 oil or fuel.

Oita is the base on the far east tip of Kyushu it starts as a level 2(1) port. Tokuyama is the port NE of it (shown with the yellow arrow) and is a level 4. Oita can only be built up to level 4 maximum but right now it is only a 2 so improving this port to a level 4 will allow an additional 1000r and 200o to flow between Kyushu and Honshu. So even if you play with base expansions off (like I do), you want to turn this one on to expand to level 4.

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short. Hokkaido has a surplus of 29,100 a day but only a level 5 port connecting to Honshu. This means just shy of 24,000 a day have to be shipped from here as well. Korea/Manchuria/northern China has excesses as well (dont have specific numbers yet but they have a lot) and a good chunk of your remaining 60-65,000 a day can probably be shipped from here. This is going to chew up a lot of your AKs doing this.

The more you expand these connecting ports, the fewer AKs you will need to ship between the islands.


You have manually ship resources/supplies between the main Japanese islands?
That seems like a bit much!




pad152 -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 12:56:17 AM)

quote:

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short.


That's gota be per month, not per day! Somebody needs to re-review Japanese production, because even the testers don't understand it![8|]



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 4:44:49 AM)

Its per day.



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 4:53:01 AM)

The attack on the lower PI:

Straightforward charge. The 2nd tank regiment will land at Butuan ("A") which is a level 3 port. 65th bde will land shortly after at Cayagan ("B"), with 15 nav gd and an airfield co landing on Jolo ("C"). An air HQ and a air base forces will be following up at Cayagan to establish a torpedo armed Betty base here. A naval base forces will land at Butuan to help repair ships. Tankers will accompany the base force for patrol refueling. The Ryujo (group "D") will cover the landings.

[image]local://upfiles/14252/C52F727EB203460E99CD83F3C2115B2F.jpg[/image]



Grotius -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 5:14:39 AM)

quote:

It needs 111,400 resources a day

Then "resources" must be denominated differently in AE, no? In my current stock game as Japan against the AI, the Home Islands (not just Honshu) use about 10-15,000 resources a day as of August 1942. That's an order of magnitude less than the figure you're quoting. Presumably one stock resource is the equivalent of about 10 AE resources?



Hornblower -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 5:23:37 AM)

i look forward to this.. it would be much better if i could do this myself.  OH well, it is what it is..



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 5:25:01 AM)

The heart of the attack Ambon / Kendari:

Forces are already heading along path "A" and "B" to grab a foothold for recon planes and to deny him recon bases. The "A" forces are single airbase companies that will grab these unoccupied bases. Part of the 81st nav gd will go with the Sorong landing as there is a small Dutch garrison there. The force that will land at Ternate (level 3 port) is the 8th tank regiment and a naval base force to set up an emergency repair base.

The "C" group will land at Ambon and will consist of the 4th div (from Osaka) with cover provided by a BB group. This force will assemble at sea near Peleliu and wont actually enter the area for a few weeks. Moving in concert with the Ambon force will be the Kendari strike force (33rd div from Nagasaki) which will also be covered by a BB group and a CV group. 1st raider regiment will drop on Namlea ("E") just before the Ambon force rounds the corner to provide close support (its a level 2 airbase).

Supply / tanker and support troops will accompany these 2 bigger forces.

[image]local://upfiles/14252/F4B33DA7D78B4792BC917A88E34761BD.jpg[/image]



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 5:27:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

quote:

It needs 111,400 resources a day

Then "resources" must be denominated differently in AE, no? In my current stock game as Japan against the AI, the Home Islands (not just Honshu) use about 10-15,000 resources a day as of August 1942. That's an order of magnitude less than the figure you're quoting. Presumably one stock resource is the equivalent of about 10 AE resources?


Each "resource center" in AE (basically the same as a resource center in stock) produces 20 resource points per day. Oil centers produce 10 oil points per day. So this: Produces 3600 per day.

[image]local://upfiles/14252/33D35D716AAF41CC9EEDA73A844327A4.jpg[/image]

a light industry uses 15 resources per day and heavy industry uses 20 resources and 2 FUEL a day.



Yamato hugger -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 5:39:49 AM)

Rabul will be a straightforward thust. New Ireland will be taken ("A") by elements of the 66th nav gd that are already enroute. 56th div (currently at sea off Japan) will wait at sea near Truk until the KB returns then will move in with them covering. 21st div is in Shanghai prepping for Moresby and will slide around the New Guinea corner after Rabul is secure and the carriers have cleared the area south of Milne Bay. 56th will be brough in behind the 21st if needed.

[image]local://upfiles/14252/FC22B7FF02DA408B8460ED3BC13FEE1C.jpg[/image]



pad152 -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 5:55:44 AM)

quote:

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short.

Per Day?


Thats's 2.73 million per month ((90K x 365) / 12), 32.85 million per year (90K x 365) for just resources for one of the Japanese islands (Honshu)!

Does Japan even have the shipping to move 2.73 million resources per month? I don't think I've ever moved more than a couple of 100K of resources per month in WITP? This doesn't include moving troops, supplies, oil, fuel, or aircraft. Is it even possible to load and unload that much, 90K per day with the new loading system using all of the ports in Honshu?

This is in 1941, with no expansion of Japanese industry, what hell are these numbers like in 1943 or 1944?

This is starting to sound more like solving the US budget deficit, instead of a war game. [8|]










TMFoss -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 6:07:45 AM)

There has got to be something we are missing here. If these numbers are in tons, then to bring in 90,000 a day would require 20-30 cargo ships arriving per day with resources. Given that some of the ports in the SRA are up to a 30 or 40 day round trip, while others would require up to 15 day, over 700 ships would be required to meet your needs. How does this work?



Andrew Brown -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 6:19:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

quote:

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short.

Per Day?


Thats's 2.73 million per month ((90K x 365) / 12), 32.85 million per year (90K x 365) for just resources for one of the Japanese islands (Honshu)!

Does Japan even have the shipping to move 2.73 million resources per month? I don't think I've ever moved more than a couple of 100K of resources per month in WITP? This doesn't include moving troops, supplies, oil, fuel, or aircraft. Is it even possible to load and unload that much 90K per day with the new loading system?

This is in 1941, with no expansion of Japanese industry, what hell are these numbers like in 1943 or 1944?

This is starting to sound more like solving the US budget deficit, instead of a war game. [8|]



Note that these values are still being reviewed and adjusted, but the end result should be that the Japanese need to import approximately 40-50 thousand resources per day to the home islands from elsewhere. This does not account for transfers between the home islands (such as between Hokkaido and Honshu). These are historical values, and yes they are much greater than in the current game.

In short, the current game underrates the amount of resources the Japanese needed to haul around by about an order of magnitude. Another way I have seen this described by players on this forum is that the civilian economy is not modelled in WitP - that is, many of the resources that the Japanese required to run their economy were not represented in WitP, so they didn't need to use the ships to transport them either. That is one thing we have corrected in AE.

Regarding the question as to whether the Japanese have enough ships to move the resources around - yes they do.

Andrew



Andrew Brown -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 6:22:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TMFoss

There has got to be something we are missing here. If these numbers are in tons, then to bring in 90,000 a day would require 20-30 cargo ships arriving per day with resources. Given that some of the ports in the SRA are up to a 30 or 40 day round trip, while others would require up to 15 day, over 700 ships would be required to meet your needs. How does this work?


In AE, Japan is pretty much self sufficient for resources at the start of the game. There is a lot of excess resources production in Korea, Manchukuo and occupied China, that can be used to make up the shortfall in Japan proper. These are a lot closer to Japan that the DEI. So yes a lot of shipping is required, but the distances are not great.

Andrew



Andrew Brown -> RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> (2/25/2009 6:31:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
Is it even possible to load and unload that much, 90K per day with the new loading system using all of the ports in Honshu?


That's a good question. The port unloading/loading rates are a factor of size, and the larger ports have a much greater capacities than the smaller ports. The sizes of the big ports were set in part using historical cargo handling rates, and it turns out that of the 7 size 10 ports present at the start of the game, 4 are in the Japanese home islands (the other 3 are at Allied off map bases). There is a reason that the Japanese had several of the world's busiest ports in 1941!

A single size 10 port can handle up to 176,000 points per day.

Andrew



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