Shattered Sword book reviewed

Shattered Sword book reviewed (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945

Message

Ellsid -> Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 8:54:02 AM)
I had picked up a copy of the Battle of Midway, "Shattered Sword" last month...and it got me back to playing WITP. It enlightened me on a few facts and nailed down what I thought was definitely true but had not read it anywhere. I'm curious if anyone who has read it, which I'm sure many WITP players who are Pacific war history buffs have, what are your thoughts on the authors conclusions? For me what really stood out from almost everything else was the poor Japanese operational planning of "Operation MI". The inability of the Japanese command to modify or change actions once the operational plans inertia got started. That the whole operation hinged on the amphibious assault taking place on June 6, 1942.

herwin -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 9:20:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ellsid I had picked up a copy of the Battle of Midway, "Shattered Sword" last month...and it got me back to playing WITP. It enlightened me on a few facts and nailed down what I thought was definitely true but had not read it anywhere. I'm curious if anyone who has read it, which I'm sure many WITP players who are Pacific war history buffs have, what are your thoughts on the authors conclusions? For me what really stood out from almost everything else was the poor Japanese operational planning of "Operation MI". The inability of the Japanese command to modify or change actions once the operational plans inertia got started. That the whole operation hinged on the amphibious assault taking place on June 6, 1942. That sort of thing was characteristic of both sides throughout the war, and in fact is how things are done even today. It's also the reason for the funny operations mechanism in Victory Games' Pacific War. (I was chief systems engineer for a corps-level command and control system that had the planning of amphibious landings as one of its primary functions.) I've tried to do it playing the Japanese, but the game engine tends to disrupt the detailed timing. [:@]

wild_Willie2 -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 9:33:32 AM)
A lot of players read the book, and it shows indeed a lack of flexibility and over complex planning on the Japanese side. It also shows how lucky the allies got...

marky -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 10:32:14 AM)
i saw it in barnes n noble but didnt snatch it up, and never got around to going back for it [sm=fighting0043.gif]

rtrapasso -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 10:37:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2 A lot of players read the book, and it shows indeed a lack of flexibility and over complex planning on the Japanese side. It also shows how lucky the allies got... [&:] [&:] i thought it showed the opposite... books like Miracle at Midway and Incredible Victory strongly implied it was (mostly) luck that the USN won... Shattered Sword showed the poor planning and preplanned disaster waiting for the IJN at Midway (at the very least, the later book points out the slaughter that would have taken place had the Japanese actually attempted a landing.)

wild_Willie2 -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:38:39 AM)
The allies got lucky in the strike that nailed 4 IJN CV's. The Japanese would have indeed been masacred IF they would have tried to land on Midway. Their Landing boats could not have gotten over the reefs surrounding the island at any tide. They would have had to either line up to go through the reef at the few (heavily defended) existing gaps, or would have had to land their troops on the edge of the reef to let them wade the last 400 yards (under fire) upto the (heavily defended) beach......

cantona2 -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:47:44 AM)
Great book, great read and a great introduction and education to those of us more used to the Russian steppe.

rtrapasso -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:54:42 AM)
quote: The allies got lucky in the strike that nailed 4 IJN CV's. Possibly - although the "the" strike was actually a series of air strikes, and only one of them "got lucky"* and got 3 CVs (the 4th was hit the next day)... The Japanese carriers were under more or less constant attack for several hours, leading up to the dive bomber attack that finally scored the fatal hits on 3 carriers... this was a different story than what had been believed in the Western literature (the Japanese had written about the discrepancies in fact long before Shattered Sword. The book points out that luck was consistently running against the USN that day and debunks many of the myths that Fuchida told his interrogators after the war... he basically told the Allies what they wanted to hear. *EDIT: To paraphrase a British Admiral commenting on another battle in another war: it is hard to characterize a concentrated effort on finally obtaining a desired objective as "luck".

John Lansford -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 12:52:06 PM)
Shattered Sword is an excellent book from the IJN's side of the battle, that showed how small issues, when added cumulatively to other issues, eventually turn into battle losing mistakes. For example, since the IJN didn't have air search radar and very few radios in the fighter planes, they spread out their TF so much that the ships couldn't work together to ID incoming attacks. The fighters couldn't coordinate, they all went after any planes that could be seen, so there weren't any at DB height when the Dauntlesses appeared overhead. Meanwhile, the small elevators on the carriers meant the attack planes had to be serviced in the hangar deck and brought up one by one to the flight deck, but since the fighters were constantly landing and taking off (no coordination again) the armed bombers were kept on the hangar deck, waiting.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 1:38:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2 The allies got lucky in the strike that nailed 4 IJN CV's. The Japanese would have indeed been masacred IF they would have tried to land on Midway. Their Landing boats could not have gotten over the reefs surrounding the island at any tide. They would have had to either line up to go through the reef at the few (heavily defended) existing gaps, or would have had to land their troops on the edge of the reef to let them wade the last 400 yards (under fire) upto the (heavily defended) beach...... "Luck" is almost always a factor in naval battles..., and usually comes about when one side stumbles on a weakness of the other's. Had the Japanese "system" been more flexible and better thought out in defensive terms, they wouldn't have found themselves with ALL thier CAP out-of-position when the US Dive Bombers put in their belated appearance. While I found the writing both pedantic and bombastic, Shattered Sword offered a number of new insights into the weaknesses of the IJN which showed that the "Miracle at Midway" was much less divine intervention, and much more systemic weakness, catching up to the Japanese. A must for anyone interested in the Pacific War.

Joe D. -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 2:35:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ellsid ... For me what really stood out from almost everything else was the poor Japanese operational planning of "Operation MI". The inability of the Japanese command to modify or change actions once the operational plans inertia got started. That the whole operation hinged on the amphibious assault taking place on June 6, 1942. The OP MI ruse was so deliberately elaborate that the kido butai was left alone and vulnerable; that proved a severe disadvantage as the IJN never emphasized defensive tactics, always offense. Then there was the add-on plan to attack the Aleutians; both plans suffered from the IJ losses at Coral Sea. It wasn't as much bad planning as over-planning, and once those plans went into effect, in the oriental martial mindset, nothing could stop them; I think it was a matter of avoiding any personal responsibility and saving of face. Or was MI just a wet Market Garden? I thought MG was at least feasible, just a long-shot.

witpqs -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 3:10:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso and got 3 CVs (the 4th was hit the next day)... I thought that was an error in many US histories (and movies like Midway) that was corrected long ago. The 4th carrier (Hiryu) was actually sunk late on the same day.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 3:31:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso and got 3 CVs (the 4th was hit the next day)... I thought that was an error in many US histories (and movies like Midway) that was corrected long ago. The 4th carrier (Hiryu) was actually sunk late on the same day. Right! It was Mogami & Mikuma that got a pounding on the 5th...

herwin -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 4:06:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joe D. quote: ORIGINAL: Ellsid ... For me what really stood out from almost everything else was the poor Japanese operational planning of "Operation MI". The inability of the Japanese command to modify or change actions once the operational plans inertia got started. That the whole operation hinged on the amphibious assault taking place on June 6, 1942. The OP MI ruse was so deliberately elaborate that the kido butai was left alone and vulnerable; that proved a severe disadvantage as the IJN never emphasized defensive tactics, always offense. Then there was the add-on plan to attack the Aleutians; both plans suffered from the IJ losses at Coral Sea. It wasn't as much bad planning as over-planning, and once those plans went into effect, in the oriental martial mindset, nothing could stop them; I think it was a matter of avoiding any personal responsibility and saving of face. Or was MI just a wet Market Garden? I thought MG was at least feasible, just a long-shot. Ever watch Kagemusha?

timtom -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 4:41:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso and got 3 CVs (the 4th was hit the next day)... I thought that was an error in many US histories (and movies like Midway) that was corrected long ago. The 4th carrier (Hiryu) was actually sunk late on the same day. She was scuttled! [:D]

Joe D. -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 4:50:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso and got 3 CVs (the 4th was hit the next day)... I thought that was an error in many US histories (and movies like Midway) that was corrected long ago. The 4th carrier (Hiryu) was actually sunk late on the same day. And all of them were administered the coup de grace by long-lance torpedoes!

Joe D. -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 4:53:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: herwin quote: ORIGINAL: Joe D. quote: ORIGINAL: Ellsid ... For me what really stood out from almost everything else was the poor Japanese operational planning of "Operation MI". The inability of the Japanese command to modify or change actions once the operational plans inertia got started. That the whole operation hinged on the amphibious assault taking place on June 6, 1942. The OP MI ruse was so deliberately elaborate that the kido butai was left alone and vulnerable; that proved a severe disadvantage as the IJN never emphasized defensive tactics, always offense. Then there was the add-on plan to attack the Aleutians; both plans suffered from the IJ losses at Coral Sea. It wasn't as much bad planning as over-planning, and once those plans went into effect, in the oriental martial mindset, nothing could stop them; I think it was a matter of avoiding any personal responsibility and saving of face. Or was MI just a wet Market Garden? I thought MG was at least feasible, just a long-shot. Ever watch Kagemusha? No, assuming that's a Japanese film.

EWGuttag -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 5:41:53 PM)
I've read Shattered Sword (and will re-read it at some point). It is a great, great book that "shatters" or at least raises issues about supposedly settled "dogma" about what happened at Midway (one being whether the KB was ready to launch planes when the US SBDs made the attack that eventually sent the Akagi, Soryu and Kaga to the bottom), especially from the Japanese perspective. I, for one, didn't mind the detail, including the interesting discussion of Japanese doctrine. One of the co-authors, Jon Parshall, is a fellow Carleton College grad who has studie the IJN since childhood (my younger brother Mark, also a Carleton grad, knew Jon and also brought Shattered Sword to my attention), so maybe I'm partial to a fellow alum. Whether or not you agree with the conclusions in Shattered Sword, it does point out many, many problems with the conclusions of prior descriptions of Midway (including the movie) which simply don't match up with the facts. This book is also extensively researched based on Japanese operational reports, something prior books from the US side didn't have or don't use. Definitely a "must have" book for any interested in the Pacific War.

John 3rd -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 6:53:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marky i saw it in barnes n noble but didnt snatch it up, and never got around to going back for it [sm=fighting0043.gif] Marky--I love your shot of Enterprise!

Christof -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:04:01 PM)
Well honestly. For me there was a "before" and "after" reading Shattered Sword... Before: thought that the US had just been plain lucky winning this battle After: today I think that the only piece of "luck" that day for the US was the fact that some SBD jockey managed to completly disable the Akagi with one single bomb hit - which in fact was almost a near miss... Great book!

witpqs -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:08:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Christof After: today I think that the only piece of "luck" that day for the US was the fact that some SBD jockey managed to completly disable the Akagi with one single bomb hit - which in fact was almost a near miss... I haven't yet had the pleasure of reading the book. How was it almost a near miss?

spence -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:18:51 PM)
quote: Possibly - although the "the" strike was actually a series of air strikes, and only one of them "got lucky"* and got 3 CVs (the 4th was hit the next day)... The Japanese carriers were under more or less constant attack for several hours, leading up to the dive bomber attack that finally scored the fatal hits on 3 carriers... this was a different story than what had been believed in the Western literature (the Japanese had written about the discrepancies in fact long before Shattered Sword. The book points out that luck was consistently running against the USN that day and debunks many of the myths that Fuchida told his interrogators after the war... he basically told the Allies what they wanted to hear. *EDIT: To paraphrase a British Admiral commenting on another battle in another war: it is hard to characterize a concentrated effort on finally obtaining a desired objective as "luck". Right on. On the morning of June 4th, the Americans put ~175 attack planes into the air to go after the KB. During the same time frame the Japanese put ah...none into the air to attack the American carriers. Consistently bad American luck allowed the Japanese CAP, which comprised the only effective active defense (IJN flak shot down only 3 planes that morning and one of those was a Zero), to deal with each of the raids successively and individually for over 3 hours. When the final two raids arrived simultaneously the IJN air defense system completely broke down. Not only was one of the raids undetected but the interception of the other (Yorktown's combined arms raid) was completely botched by the CAP. Half the available IJN fighters ganged up on the minimal (and effectively impotent)escort and the rest of the CAP intercepted only the TBDs, completely ignoring the SBDs.

spence -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:30:47 PM)
Lt Richard Best planted a 1000 lb bomb right smack dab on the midships elevator destroying both the elevator and the hangar deck CO2 fire suppression system. It was the perfect hit striking in the one place that guaranteed the carrier would be out of action at the very least. Since it also set several armed and gassed aircraft afire the consequences were virtually sure to be even more disasterous to the Japanese. There is some speculation however, that one of Best's wingmen inflicted some unspecified damage to the steering gear with a near miss just to starboard of the ship's rudders. When the rudders were subsequently ordered hard over for evasive manuevers the rudders jammed. The crew was unable to restore the steering and the decision to abandon the ship and later scuttle it may have been influenced by this apparent inability (that the rudders jammed is not in dispute; only whether the near miss astern directly contributed to them jamming).

Q-Ball -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:32:15 PM)
If you like Shattered Sword (which I did), check out "Kaigun" by Nick Evans. Complete history of the IJN, with alot on it's tactical doctrine. A must for any hardcore Pacific War buffs!

witpqs -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/5/2009 11:47:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spence Lt Richard Best planted a 1000 lb bomb right smack dab on the midships elevator destroying both the elevator and the hangar deck CO2 fire suppression system. It was the perfect hit striking in the one place that guaranteed the carrier would be out of action at the very least. Since it also set several armed and gassed aircraft afire the consequences were virtually sure to be even more disasterous to the Japanese. There is some speculation however, that one of Best's wingmen inflicted some unspecified damage to the steering gear with a near miss just to starboard of the ship's rudders. When the rudders were subsequently ordered hard over for evasive manuevers the rudders jammed. The crew was unable to restore the steering and the decision to abandon the ship and later scuttle it may have been influenced by this apparent inability (that the rudders jammed is not in dispute; only whether the near miss astern directly contributed to them jamming). Thanks. It's the kind of thing where, even if the rudder had responded properly, we will never know if she could have evaded the bomb or even if Best would have been able to adjust his aim.

herwin -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/6/2009 12:04:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Christof Well honestly. For me there was a "before" and "after" reading Shattered Sword... Before: thought that the US had just been plain lucky winning this battle After: today I think that the only piece of "luck" that day for the US was the fact that some SBD jockey managed to completly disable the Akagi with one single bomb hit - which in fact was almost a near miss... Great book! Near misses were usually more serious than direct hits--most cruisers were sunk by torpedoes or by the mining effect of near misses.

IndyShark -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/6/2009 1:07:26 AM)
I LOVED Shattered Sword! It's a great book Q-ball, please tell me more about Kaigun.

marky -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/6/2009 1:27:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John 3rd quote: ORIGINAL: marky i saw it in barnes n noble but didnt snatch it up, and never got around to going back for it [sm=fighting0043.gif] Marky--I love your shot of Enterprise! thankyz, 1 of my favorite shots of her

spence -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/6/2009 2:29:26 AM)
quote: Thanks. It's the kind of thing where, even if the rudder had responded properly, we will never know if she could have evaded the bomb or even if Best would have been able to adjust his aim. The bombs that Best and his wingman released impacted in essentially the same pattern as their formation with Best's bomb slightly "in advance of and in the center of" the two bombs dropped by his wingmen (which were both near misses ahead and astern) The bomb that near-miss impacted astern actually passed through the overhang of the flight deck being a slightly closer near miss than the one ahead. The Akagi continued to manuever after being struck by Best's bomb and that is when the rudder jammed. I believe Best is a named pilot in WitP; and IIRC, has a high experience rating. It seems that such is highly deserved from this one incident but also IIRC, is justified by his scoring a hit on Hiryu later that day.

Ellsid -> RE: Shattered Sword book reviewed (3/6/2009 2:29:50 AM)
A big myth breaker for me was the only operational contegency planned for by the IJN was to not send a full all out load to hit Midway and placed a ready reserve of aircraft fully loaded in the hangardeck ready to meet any enemy fleet that might show up. But it was known that it would take a full air complement to knock down the Midway defenses. Another thing that raises an eyebrow about the Japanese battle plan was that of the B-17 attack on June 4, 1942 on the Midway invasion force. You would think the Japanese would at least think that the jig was up on the surprise party! But as a result of Midway I believe Nagumo performed much better at the Battle of Eastern Solomons and Battle of Santa Cruz Islands. I don't think the Hornet CV air group ever achieved the proficiency of Saratoga, Enterprise or Yorktown.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

9.062988