Strategic Movement (Naval) (Full Version)

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lenin -> Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 4:06:23 PM)

Sorry for the noobish question.

In the 1803 scenario, my British fleet outside the large French Fleet in Brest wishes to run away before it is rapidly eaten up. Now, IIRC, the British fleet has an initiative of 85 against the French 75. However, the French fleet seems to always emerge instantly, engaging the British fleet before it has a chance to move even the one zone away that would ensure its survival. Now I don't want to set it to evade combat, or the French Fleet will sail happily up the channel, defeating the much smaller British fleets in detail before dropping a large army in the UK. I was hoping the British fleet could retreat a zone or two (and be in range of support of other British fleets) before turning to fight. As it is, it seems to be badly mauled every time (at least in pbem / instant combat), leaving the French with immediate naval and land superiority over the British.

Is this working as intended, or have I just been consistently unlucky with rolls etc?



lenin -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 4:27:23 PM)

Never mind, this is a non-question. Worked out what I was doing wrong!



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 4:45:21 PM)

Kewl, normally, it is the French who are worried about running into the English fleets when the pull out of breast



lenin -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 5:20:17 PM)

In 1803, the British fleet outside Brest is outnumbered 2-1 by the French Fleet. In instant combat, it might be best to move away?



Mraah -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 6:16:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lenin

Never mind, this is a non-question. Worked out what I was doing wrong!


[&:] ... What did you do wrong?

Rob <-- noob as well.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 6:37:20 PM)

2-1, but what kind of ships, what kind of morale, leadership, upgrades ?

of course, in Quick Combat, bad things can happen to good people :)

1803 ?, let me look around



lenin -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 6:39:56 PM)

I just misread the manual. Don't think initiative has any relation to the order that units move on the strategic screen, just the liklihood they complete their moves.I think the actual move order is random. Think I have managed to work out how to avoid half the home fleet being wiped out on the first turn, I hope. Just a shame some of it is all down to the luck of the dice.....



lenin -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 6:49:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

2-1, but what kind of ships, what kind of morale, leadership, upgrades ?

of course, in Quick Combat, bad things can happen to good people :)

1803 ?, let me look around



The French have 1 Frigate, 24 3rd class and 4 1st class, morale of 5.

The British fleet has 11 3rd class and 4 1st, morale of 6.

The British also need to beware of the Dutch fleet - 12 3rd and 1 1st, morale 6. This is easily blockaded.

The British have numerical superiority in the theatre, but their fleets are spread out. Many of the "extra" ships are 4th class, and not much use in a stand-up fight.

The trick for the British is to find a way to concentrate their fleets without them being defeated in detail in instant battle, particularly if on turn 1 the French get the wind gauge (which eliminates the British morale advantage - 66% chance for attacker.

Interesting operational problem on turn 1, eh?



Russian Guard -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 6:51:15 PM)


"breast"? that qualifies as a Freudian slip, I'd say [:D]







Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 7:16:16 PM)

not for me it don't

Dutch Fleet ? nothing to worry about there, other then a going up vs a fleet of frigates, the Dutch Fleet is a lot seaweed waiting to happen, you want that Fleet at sea, what you don't want is Nappy getting his hands on the Dane Fleet

in 1803, you only have the French to worry about, you don't Need Nelson or Keith in the south, bring them up, the Dutch have to go north, before they can reach the channel, be waiting for them, shift one of the channel fleets to help out in Breast

it is going to be 15 to 29 (I thought I counted 5 SOLs ? for the English ??)

now instand or quick combat is going to be pretty much numbers vs numbers, HW will bring some skill to it

you may want to let that blocking fleet, evade, the French get out, they get out, just have the routes covered, let Nelson or Cornwallis be the heroes

the French Fleet isn't really going to go anywhere, it heads towards the channel, it got to run into Cornwallis, it heads towards the Med it is going to run into Nelson

you get all the bad rolls, you may get spanked alittle, you get some rolls, you will cripple the French navy



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 7:47:21 PM)

ahh your right, it is 4 SOLs, I must of miscounted

LOL, lady luck don't like me, get the battle, and am the attackers, and get the wind in my face, start to get close, and start to shift my line of sail, and the wind changes and again is in my face



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 7:49:46 PM)

okay lets see

here are where my fleets should be

[image]local://upfiles/1438/6F32AAAF927E46EB8A3B3E318D6DABE1.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 7:50:12 PM)

and the north

[image]local://upfiles/1438/94E4AE0B2E1E488381FF2A5033201BCB.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 7:51:31 PM)

ahhhh, 15 to 29, oh boy, if nothing else, got to do some damage, let Nelson or Cornwallis finish them off

hehe yea right

[image]local://upfiles/1438/EEF32FFEDFEF4364AE2F7F157F8323AB.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 7:52:20 PM)

and the wind changes

ahhh, and that was going to be so pretty

[image]local://upfiles/1438/C6963046ABFD4161A9FD35A0C86797FD.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 8:10:27 PM)

well this is not good, not seen this happen often, my fleet is becalmed, almost nothing can move, and the wind is not blowing the smoke away, I really need a wind shift



[image]local://upfiles/1438/B51CCE53DD8B46BBB8EE8303F3071B04.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 8:12:08 PM)

and while I can't bragg about my gunnery, one of my SOL got a lucky shot off and blew up one of the French ships, another put one on fire

so, I am doing a little damage, there morale is taking a good hit

[image]local://upfiles/1438/CC486DE4112F448BA6820F01DC8BDC5C.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 8:16:22 PM)

LOL

what a pain in the butt, I had one ship able to move one hex, and that is the one in the back of the fleet, who turned the wrong way early on, and only 3 ships were able to see the enemy to fire

I wonder if Nelson ever had days like this ?


oh, but the French lost another point of WTF

so from 21 to 20, it is 18 to 20



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 8:41:33 PM)

been a slow battle, still got the wrong wind, but slowing am hurting the French, they are stuck as much as I am, but what I can hit, I can hurt

one that helped had one ship get 3 crit hit in a row

4 ships have stuck and 1 has exploded, WTF is starting to fall on both sides, but faster on there side then mine (Better Morale helps)

(not getting pounded helps too)

[image]local://upfiles/1438/9C6B64D50EB84F11A03C87885DD14E85.jpg[/image]



lenin -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 9:12:45 PM)

You are right. 2-1 in detailed combat is no problem - just cross the "T" and sinks a couple of them. But what about instant combat? Your fleet can't always move, outnumbered 2-1. It loses, despite more morale, better upgrades, leaders etc. Try some instant combat. That is pbem. What happens then? You lose?



lenin -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 9:14:44 PM)

That was my point. UK in 1803 is f****d. Any alternative views?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 10:10:54 PM)

well overall, just play the game, even if you lose the battle, you can still shatter the French fleet, once you can mass parts of it, you can't win every battle

I won my first battle and then lost the battler were I had the edge, just plain got out shot, but I will say, battle ended and both Fleets were - WTF, so it was a close battle



Mus -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/7/2009 10:44:03 PM)

Lenin, Im sure you are practicing for our PBEM game thats starting up, so heres my take on it.

Hard Sarge is absolutely right.  No need to have two large fleets down on the Iberian Peninsula.  France has Villawhatevers fleet down there, but he can be left for a turn or two.  Move Nelsons Fleet to the western half of the Bay of Biscay.  Move Keith up to the water area west of the channel and bring your Fleet blockading Brest to the English Channel WHILE AVOIDING BATTLE.  This is still an iffy thing and that group might get taken out.  Reinforce the squadron blockading the Dutch Navy. In this way you still have Brest blockaded further out but on 2 sides and have a chance not to have the Brest blockading squadron demolished for not much gain.

With instant combat the key thing is to minimize damage until you can concentrate your ships into 3-4 fleets of 32 ships and then put the leftovers into a reserve fleet and park that in Anglia.

If the French Fleet in Brest actually loaded up troops and landed them in Ireland or England I would be shocked.  For one thing very few troops are close enough to load and move in the one turn it takes you to reorganize your defenses more intelligently (and the way needed for good instant combat outcomes... concentrated) and IF THEY DID it would be VII Corps with a couple odds and ends... easily crushed by the small but elite force that the UK has on hand.

Hope this helps. 

PS I ran this a couple times for 2-3 turns and it worked well vs AI. Crushed Dutch Navy, Brest fleet and Villawhatevers fleet. Got a little dinged up in the process but at the end the French navy was toast and I would have still been able to go manhandle Spain while maintaining a decent defense in the channel against France if they tried to concentrate their remains and land a force large enough to be dangerous.

Of course the AI kinda strikes with what it has at hand very quickly. A smart human French player will likely sit with its fleets in port and try to get Spain and Denmark into the conflict before moving. This makes it even more important that you focus on force preservation and concentration.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/8/2009 11:04:43 AM)

oops, had a 3-4 hour power failure last night (figures my one day off, get up and the power goes out ten minutes later)

well started that game back up, thought I had saved the opening move, but looks like it is turn 2

the french Fleet from Breast got out, ran into my small 4th raters fleet (I got a chance to intercept with Keith so took it, but that pulled Keith away from the where that battle took place)

I basicly took my chances and ran away, but the Fleet from the south, even though they won vs Nelson, were chopped up bad and are headed to Breast, and ran into a honests nest

[image]local://upfiles/1438/94D9567EB9E34BDC8CFB0EBC826C4F63.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/8/2009 11:39:47 AM)

well that was disappointing, got one ship and the rest ran away, wasn't able to close in and pound them as I had hoped, again got becalmed

the Breast Fleets sailed though the Channel and into the North Sea, thinking they are trying to free the Dutch Fleet, of course I was waiting for the Dutch Fleet, so, while I got numbers, I kind of on the small side

so got to be fancy on this one, I have already marked my targets for this battle

[image]local://upfiles/1438/29708FB05DCE4CF9B4EC66A29B958C5B.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/8/2009 11:43:40 AM)

Wing Gage and attacker is random and all, but I am in a bad streak now, about the last ten major battles I have been the attacker and have had the wind in my face, just need to start making my luck rolls !

this one could be interesting, if I can pull off the win, the Breast Fleet should run and join the Dutch Fleet in port, making my job much easier

a weaker Fleet to block Breast and some more power to block the northern Port

[image]local://upfiles/1438/07E491EADA654CE19AAF8A50F5DCA708.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/8/2009 12:28:55 PM)

working out well, tacking and getting closer and keeping this a broadside to broadside battle

[image]local://upfiles/1438/24DCB4D3907C4656BDC8C2B3E39F1131.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/8/2009 12:29:54 PM)

as I said, I got my targets marked, there are 6 Frigates in the front line, going to hammer on them, and pick at what else I get a good shot at



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/8/2009 12:31:06 PM)

get a good volly in and one of the Frigates goes up in a nice boom, the French take a good morale hit

[image]local://upfiles/1438/CCBF315AD4F2410C8FE920075BEAB6E1.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Strategic Movement (Naval) (3/8/2009 12:31:36 PM)

plus another of the Frigates just stuck



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