Night fighting (Full Version)

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Hortlund -> Night fighting (10/19/2000 7:50:00 PM)

Is it only me or is this somewhat overlooked in SPWaW? Dont get me wrong, SPWaW is the best wargame I have ever played, and I cant get enough of it. (My girlfriend hates it more than anything though, I guess she's tired of the "I'll be with you in a little while honey, I just want to finish this battle" followed by me stumbling into bed at 4am). I cant thank you guys enough for this game, but there is one thing that I miss. Night combat. Lots and lots of important battles took place at night. But this is something that is very hard to simulate. I realize that one way to simulate night combat is by reducing visibility. But in my opinion this is not realistic. To reduce visibility to say 100 meters might simulate the visible range at night in some conditions. But what about starshells? What about muzzle flashes. What about units getting lost. To have a machinegun blasting away at some poor unit 2 hexes away is all good and well, but isnt it kinda strange that the enemy machinegun 150 meters away cant see or fire at the muzzle flashes? Isnt this something that could be easily fixed by allowing OP-fire at ranges beyond the visible range at night? Or starshells, couldnt a mortar or artillery piece have starshells as special ammo (like smoke) and a placed starshell stayed in place for a turn (perhaps too long time, but ok, if only 120mm mortars or 155mm arty had the possibility of using starshells..) making all adjacent hexes visible to any unit with unobstructed LOS? Infantry units (well the platoon hq's anyway) could fire starshells like they use smoke (perhaps with a 2 hex range though), making all adjacent hexes visible during that players turn only. Movement could be made very difficult by only allowing units adjacent to the platoon hq move at night, and also have some random "stray" effect that might send your unit in a completely different direction, leading to the unit now being too far away from the hq and thus unable to move...blaaah blah blah pointless rambling... Anyway, these are just my thoughts on how one could simulate night combat, but I really have no idea wether this is actually doable or if someone would have to reprogram the entire game...But I'm keeping my fingers crossed, after all ASL managed to simulate night fighting pretty well.




Wild Bill -> (10/19/2000 7:57:00 PM)

We tried to do so much in such a little period of time. Not everything we wanted made it at least into this game. We have come a long way. We took as far as we could and went long past the cut-off date for work on SPWAW. The detailing of night combat is important and could be better reflected in the game. It just did not make it. Perhaps one day. I do like how the screen is darker to simulate night time. At least there is some ambience. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games




Fredde -> (10/19/2000 8:01:00 PM)

Perhaps model fighting under starshells by increasing the overall visibility a little. That would make it a more realistic. For real, it would probably be a turn with fairly good visibility spotwise, followed by a turn with 0 visibility before your eyes can get used to the darkness again [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]. I suppose it would be very difficult to code that.




Major Destruction -> (10/20/2000 12:01:00 AM)

The concept is wonderful. Trying to recreate a night battle is very difficult. In my Corregidor scenario, I had to somehow model the ability of the US forces (equipped with searchlights) to fire on the Japanese barges in the dark but allow the fighting to continue when the moon rose. Very difficult! On the night of June 8th, 1944, the Regina Rifles defeated twelve panthers of the 12th SS which were circling their position inside a walled farm. The fires from the burning buildings blinded the German tankers but illuminated their tanks for the Cdn anti-tank guns to target easily. How do you model this? It is very difficult.




thewood -> (10/20/2000 12:13:00 AM)

Maybe using the vision slot (or whatever its called now). For the Regina Rifles problem, let the Canadiens have better vision at night. Just a thought off the top of my head.




Arralen -> (10/20/2000 1:20:00 AM)

OT ... SS=elite ??
quote:

On the night of June 8th, 1944, the Regina Rifles defeated twelve panthers of the 12th SS which were circling their position inside a walled farm. The fires from the burning buildings blinded the German tankers but illuminated their tanks for the Cdn anti-tank guns to target easily.
And that where double elite forces .. I mean, they where from a Pz Div., and they where SS ... . Looks like the typical braindead SS-commander to me .. if that Co commander survived that night I would have him shot, at least 12 times, beginning at the toes. So anyone still advocating rating the SS units as elite ?? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Arralen




Major Destruction -> (10/20/2000 2:14:00 AM)

The 12th SS are described in the account as "a savage meld of young green soldiers and tough veterans of the Russian campaign" and elsewhere, "they looked like children but they died like mad bastards" One reason for the Canadian success was their ability to jam the German FO's radio signals back to the artillery. Allied artillery and small arms fire easily stripped the German PG's from the tanks (Panzer Meyer is reported to have been burned in this battle when his motorcycle was hit and burst into flames) then the Panthers were useless. And the German commander? Max Wuensche.




rexmonday -> (10/20/2000 3:26:00 AM)

Something I have wondered about with night fighting is whether firing accuracy is reduced... I know that visibility goes down, but I haven't noticed any tendency for shots to miss more often. In a balanced battle this wouldn't really make much difference - both sides will fire and miss as many times (I guess), but becomes important in the weird visibility conditions people have discussed above, or even more importantly if stocks of ammunition are limited. So, is there an accuracy reduction?




Almogavar -> (10/20/2000 3:30:00 AM)

Arralen, the commander survived that night and was Kurt Meyer, but was captured in Falaise. After the war Meyer attributed the failure of his attack to the shortage of infantry and to the firm Canadian hold Norrey-en Bessin, which had prevented cooperation between his forces and the right wing. Major Destruction, the 1st and 4th Pz.Kp. of SS-PzRgt.12 had sustained 12 dead and 30 wounded; the platoons of Meyer´s reconnaisance company 19 dead , 16 wounded and 9 missing. Six Panthers were a total loss. Meyer suffered only minor burns and Wunsche was slightly wounded by shell fragments (splinter wounds and a slight concussion) when one of the panzers was hit on its frontal armour. PAC. War Diary. The Regina Rifles. 9 June 1944. Meyer, H., Kriegsgeschite, p103 ------------------ Desperta ferro.




Wild Bill -> (10/20/2000 5:57:00 AM)

You probably know this, but increasing experience also increases the ability to see better. I discovered this in scenario design. One unit ended up at a crossroads and was fired on by a tank. The unit could not find it. I upped its experience by 10 points, moved it to the same crossroads and it saw the tank before it even fired, but the tank did not see it. Interesting! It might help a bit. I hope you will do that battle, Major. I know you are qualified to give us a great battle. Your Corregidor scenario is a gem! It got thumbs up from Colonel Trotter in the October PC Gamer in his column. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games




Wiseman -> (10/20/2000 6:07:00 AM)

WB, Actually that seems more realistic. If the unit can see the threat first then it's tactic would be to move to the crossroads without detection, thus the tank didn't spot them. Just a thought, Wiseman




Wild Bill -> (10/20/2000 6:15:00 AM)

That was my feeling too, Steve...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games




Greg McCarty -> (10/20/2000 6:52:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzerjaeger Hortlund: [B]Is it only me or is this somewhat overlooked in SPWaW? ..... ....I cant thank you guys enough for this game, but there is one thing that I miss. Night combat. Lots and lots of important battles took place at night. But this is something that is very hard to simulate. ------------------------------------------ I am currently re-designing a night battle for SPwaw. All the proposals you mentioned would be great to have as tools, but that kind of flexibility would require programming to take these things into account. This means major code changes, followed by debugging, and pehaps a good round of unpredictable game behavior. I guess the question is how, and who, will have the incentive to tie the code into further knots to realize this important but in the broad scheme of things, peripheral improvement? Probably wont happen anytime soon. Why? cost vs benefit. The old diminishing returns rule. But to address your topic: I've found that the best approach to deal with game limitations is to stretch the most out of the existing tools, and occasionally fool the game into behaving a little closer to what we wish to achieve. To sort of do the most we can with what we have. (which aint bad by the way) And to resist the urge to micromanage a scenario to death on a detail level that gets above, below or beyond battalion/company/platoon scale in an overall management sense. This is difficult to articulate, but what I'm trying to say is that you capture the essence of the night battle by determining maximum likely visibilty given the overall environment --not just a few hundred yards of specific map detail. Remember, in a given scenario, we are going to be fighting over roughly four square miles --or more, depending on map size. So while the visibily in a real situation may vary from place to place, we are forced to round off the corners a bit and reach a level of sight limitation that fudamentally fits the essence of the battle as a whole. So you guage the situation: Are there burning buildings all over, or, no moon with rain and fog at midnight in what is mostly dense forest. Both could be night situaions, but what a great deal of contrast! Even in the modern era, night battles (on any sizeable scale) are usually avoided as a matter of doctrine, but they were often fought as a calculated risk if the judgement was that the situation was worth it, or just plain desperate. Night battles are, by nature, terrifying, wastefull and chaotic. Which is why I chose to reproduce the battle of Caumont, June 12, 1944. -A pitched night battle between elements of the American 1st infantry div, and the Aufklarungs battalion of the 2nd Panzer Div. You'd be amazed at the startling and unpredicatble yet realistic results that can be achieved with as little as visibilty reduction, carefull waypoint selection, and clever use of map features. While there are certainly limitations to what we can do, I have been fairly pleased with what the game has allowed me to put together so far. Greg. [This message has been edited by Greg McCarty (edited October 20, 2000).]




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