Shock attack on Atolls (Full Version)

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Major Ball -> Shock attack on Atolls (3/22/2009 1:46:06 PM)

Landed at an Atoll recently and my units launch a shock attack on the intitial turn which is expected and everyturn there after without me even ordering or unloading more troops.

Is normal?




Mistmatz -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/22/2009 1:49:20 PM)

Yes, as long as you unload troops you'll see this shock attack every turn.

Splitting landing forces among many vessels so you unload in one or two waves should help considerably. Unloading supplies is no problem btw.



Major Ball -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/22/2009 2:13:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Yes, as long as you unload troops you'll see this shock attack every turn.

Splitting landing forces among many vessels so you unload in one or two waves should help considerably. Unloading supplies is no problem btw.


ok well I like to know why on the turns I had nothing to unload and orders were set to defense they kept shock attacking. Cost me the 1st and 2nd USMC divisions to attrition after about 6 consecutive attacks.




Shark7 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/22/2009 3:52:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Ball

Landed at an Atoll recently and my units launch a shock attack on the intitial turn which is expected and everyturn there after without me even ordering or unloading more troops.

Is normal?




Also, so long as your attack turn nets at least a 1:1 assult result, the attack will continue the next turn unless you turn it off manually. If you get 0:1 results, it will automatically set to defensive stance, unless you unload more troops on an atoll or via paradrop.



Major Ball -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/22/2009 9:29:20 PM)

Well I think I understand:
1/ Didnt have enough transports, need to get nearly all troops ashore turn 1 and the most turn 2.
2/ Although had 3 times the force required one division of 3 didnt unload until the next turn. The enemy force was only around 180 assault strength and with Bombardment etc this was reduced to around 70-80. I started with 1200 assault strength.
3/It took 5-6 days to unload with a shock attack everyday(200+ Engineers were all disabled on landing)
4/Even though the fortifications were reduced on most attacks the 300 disable squads from the first day on the 1st USMC doomed the invasion.
5/Attempting to unlaod a HQ after that inititiated another shock attack.
6/This followed by paratroops made another shock attack.
7/Finally after 8-9 shock attacks in a row the 1st USMC & 2nd USMC Division were destroyed due to attrition and lost forever(didnt keep any fragments!!) and did not know they would disappear while still having asssault strength and other units in the hex!!
8/When doing invasion keep all the fleets carrying the units in the same TF so they all unload at the same time!!(THIS IS CRUCIAL)

Basically I attritioned away the strength by automatic shock attacks by unloading on multiple turns and paratroopers.

Lesson learned!!



Shark7 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/22/2009 10:12:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Ball

Well I think I understand:
1/ Didnt have enough transports, need to get nearly all troops ashore turn 1 and the most turn 2.
2/ Although had 3 times the force required one division of 3 didnt unload until the next turn. The enemy force was only around 180 assault strength and with Bombardment etc this was reduced to around 70-80. I started with 1200 assault strength.
3/It took 5-6 days to unload with a shock attack everyday(200+ Engineers were all disabled on landing)
4/Even though the fortifications were reduced on most attacks the 300 disable squads from the first day on the 1st USMC doomed the invasion.
5/Attempting to unlaod a HQ after that inititiated another shock attack.
6/This followed by paratroops made another shock attack.
7/Finally after 8-9 shock attacks in a row the 1st USMC & 2nd USMC Division were destroyed due to attrition and lost forever(didnt keep any fragments!!) and did not know they would disappear while still having asssault strength and other units in the hex!!
8/When doing invasion keep all the fleets carrying the units in the same TF so they all unload at the same time!!(THIS IS CRUCIAL)

Basically I attritioned away the strength by automatic shock attacks by unloading on multiple turns and paratroopers.

Lesson learned!!


That is pretty much it. Assaults on atolls are just brutal. There is very little room for troops and absolutely no where to hide. A well dug in defender will shred an attacking force, even if the attacker wins.



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 2:45:41 AM)

Here's a question how many load points will unload from an AP or AK onto an atoll assuming a full day's unloading goes on?

The manual leads me to think about 400 loads points will go ashore from each ship but I'm unsure if that's a bit low... Any ideas?



John Lansford -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 10:17:50 AM)

One of the best ship class to use in assaulting atolls are the amphibious types (LST, LCI, LSD, etc).  They all unload in one turn so there's none of that "trickle to the beach" problem.

On a completely unrelated note, I started my first all-war campaign and have gone two weeks so far.  The AI is extremely reluctant to assault Rabaul despite only having the usual Allied forces there.  They've only launched bombardment attacks and actually mined the harbor defensively (lost Adelaide to a mine when she tried to disrupt the landing).  Singapore is still holding out but I think I kept the RN surface forces there about two days too long; attacks have crippled Prince of Wales and several cruisers and getting them out of there may be tough.



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 2:33:03 PM)

Aye, the problem is just what do you do when you don't have LSTs or any of those other specialised ships?



Mistmatz -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 3:14:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Aye, the problem is just what do you do when you don't have LSTs or any of those other specialised ships?



Isolate or suffer. [8D]



John Lansford -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 4:18:13 PM)

If you don't have LST's, use the APA's and AKA's you have.  Problem is, the only way you can find them is click on each individual AP and AK you've got (the AKA's I think are faster so you might find them that way), then put them all together in a TF.  The APA/AKA ships unload a lot faster than the generic AP/AK's but not as fast as the LST's and related ship classes.



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 4:45:06 PM)

Ok but what if there are no APAs or AKAs. You just have ordinary AKs and APs. What amount of load points from an ordinary AK or AP will get ashore.


As to the suffering. All life is suffering, the trick is to make the other b*****d suffer more ;-)


Seriously, I know I'm going to get slaughtered here but I just want to make the slaughter pay off in the end.



John Lansford -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 5:16:08 PM)

IIRC there was a thread many years ago about amphibious assaults where the recommendation was to double the # of AP's in the TF to carry a LCU making an atoll assault.  So, if you looked at the math and decided you needed 5 AP's to carry a Marine Division, you put 10 in the TF and loaded the Marines in all of them.  That way they'd unload quicker and hit the beach harder in that first round.  Also, never, ever carry more than one LCU in a TF assaulting an atoll, and make sure you've got AK's in a seperate TF feeding them supplies in the same turn they make the assault.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 5:59:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

IIRC there was a thread many years ago about amphibious assaults where the recommendation was to double the # of AP's in the TF to carry a LCU making an atoll assault.  So, if you looked at the math and decided you needed 5 AP's to carry a Marine Division, you put 10 in the TF and loaded the Marines in all of them.  That way they'd unload quicker and hit the beach harder in that first round.  Also, never, ever carry more than one LCU in a TF assaulting an atoll, and make sure you've got AK's in a seperate TF feeding them supplies in the same turn they make the assault.


Well this is one persons opinion. Mine is quite different. I hit in 1 TF. Yes, I have AKs loaded with nothing but supply. When I load my TFs, I select the ships I want and load 1 land unit per TF, then I combine all these TFs and add a few AKs after the fact. While the ships are loading their troops, the "supply" AKs will load their stuff. Sometimes I will put tankers or AOs in the TF as well so after the base falls I have fuel ready to go for those ships that need it. Putting all this crap in separate TFs make the whole mess easier to spot and harder to defend. 1 TF is a single target for your LRCAP that you dont have to worry about lagging a hex behind the others.

If you have done your prep work properly, there are no mines to deal with at the target and the CD fire will be minimal.



Nomad -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 6:09:55 PM)

In stock, I have used the 2000 APs and used 5 times the number I needed. They unloaded in one day, so I guess the 400 number is about right. If you don't have LSTs for Atolls, then I suggest you go a different direction and do not assault
atolls. [:D]



John Lansford -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 8:32:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

In stock, I have used the 2000 APs and used 5 times the number I needed. They unloaded in one day, so I guess the 400 number is about right. If you don't have LSTs for Atolls, then I suggest you go a different direction and do not assault
atolls. [:D]


Or pick on ones that aren't heavily defended or even unoccupied. Those don't give too much a fight either.



Shark7 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 8:58:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

In stock, I have used the 2000 APs and used 5 times the number I needed. They unloaded in one day, so I guess the 400 number is about right. If you don't have LSTs for Atolls, then I suggest you go a different direction and do not assault
atolls. [:D]


Or pick on ones that aren't heavily defended or even unoccupied. Those don't give too much a fight either.


Well when I wanted Midway I had to fight for it. Granted with 13 carriers, 2 BBs, and numberous MSWs supporting it, the island fell in 1 turn. Mostly cause I air and TF bombarded it till it was glassed over.

Although it was obvious he mined the island to the point you could have walked out 5 miles from the coast in any direction and not gotten your feet wet, even with the heavy minesweeping I ended up losing about a dozen ships in the assult. It took a 12 MSW TF 2 full weeks to fully clear the mines.



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 9:19:26 PM)

Aye, the kicker for this is that there isn't going to be a prep. If I'm lucky I'll have two days of prep, most likely I'll just have 1. C'est la guerre though and if that's what I'll have then that's what I'll have. If I organise it properly it'll just mean more casualties, not make the thing impossible.



Major Ball -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 9:46:25 PM)

Here is an alternative for the US. If invading an Atoll with say 150 assault strength send in 2 RCT in the first wave with some combat Engineers loaded on 4 times the transports they need so they get ashore in 1 turn. This should give roughly 500-600 shock atttack. Then Follow up in the next turn with another full strength unit landing in the one turn. I beleive the fatal mistake I made was to land 3 divisions at the same time with no reserves to follow up the inititial strike. The only reserves I had was the the ships unloading the secondary weapons from the divisions which had landed most of their combat troops on the first turn.



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 9:59:51 PM)

I don't think the issue is to phase your landings. After all better to hit with 1000 AV on Day 1 than 600 on Day 1 and 400 additional on Day 2.

I think the issue is to make sure you get most of your AV ashore on Day 1. Better to land 600 AV in 1 day than 1200 AV over 4 days ( which never lets you get more than 300 AV ashore per day ). That's the maths which matters for atoll landings.

The problem is figuring out how much can be unloaded per day. The best figure I can see coming up here is 400 load points for a normal AP or AK.



modrow -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 11:27:18 PM)

Nemo,

I think I read somewhere in these forums the number you mention is roughly correct, but per phase of unloading, not per turn. Not 100% sure though - check before using. I can send you a stock test file if you want, I think one can easily create one from coral sea scenario. If you can't be sure about in which phase you will arrive, use the number you mentioned. But if it's an Atoll, you might want to make sure you start unloading in a fresh turn. At least that's what I try to do if situation permits that.

Hartwig



Major Ball -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/23/2009 11:52:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

Nemo,

I think I read somewhere in these forums the number you mention is roughly correct, but per phase of unloading, not per turn. Not 100% sure though - check before using. I can send you a stock test file if you want, I think one can easily create one from coral sea scenario. If you can't be sure about in which phase you will arrive, use the number you mentioned. But if it's an Atoll, you might want to make sure you start unloading in a fresh turn. At least that's what I try to do if situation permits that.

Hartwig


So move to the target hex but dont unlaod until the start of the next turn to maximise the amount of operation points your transports have so they can unload the most troops in the one day.
Another tip for my little black book.




Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 12:01:21 AM)

Hartwig., yes that was the plan.... unload for all 24 hours before attacking, gets the maximum number of boots on the ground.

So 400 per phase eh? That's interesting, that should help double my initial lift capacity and THAT will help out a lot in the long-run. It means I can have twice as many combat units attacking on Day 1 as I otherwise would.



John Lansford -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 12:11:45 AM)

It's not important when the troops reach the invasion site, but it's vital that they all arrive at the same time. If you've got your invasion troops in different TF's, assign the slowest one for the others to all follow and they'll all show up and start unloading at the same time. Movement takes place twice a day and IIRC invasion fleets try and arrive at night so they get the maximum number of phases to unload.



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 12:23:25 AM)

Well I think you'd be misguided to try to rely on the game to do this. Far better to just arrive with DO NOT UNLOAD selected and then on your next orders phase set everything to unload. Simple, effective and not subject to the vagaries of chance as much as relying on the computer to do it.

The only downside is that you have to be prepared to withstand an additional day of aerial and naval counter-attack. But that's a small downside really.



heenanc -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 12:26:03 AM)

"So move to the target hex but dont unlaod until the start of the next turn to maximise the amount of operation points your transports have so they can unload the most troops in the one day.
Another tip for my little black book."

I wouldn't do this from experience when a TF enters a hex that has a base and is controlled by the enemy they will unload a portion of troops onto the hex but no supplies will unload (if the TF is set to do not unload) Apparently it works as intended?!?!?!?

With a portion of your troops unloaded without supplies they sometimes shock attack this can lead to terrible results (Divisions turn into Naval guards.)

However if you move the TF to a hex one out from the target hex (as long as it's not a base also) then you will get the maximum results.

When I was preparing for the invasion of Java I has all my TF's set to join up at a hex just north of Sumatra as it was a enemy hex (no troops at the base) a portion of all my troops unloaded (like a piece of each of the 25 units on board) It took me half an hour to re-organize the divisions and start the process of getting them back onto ships (the unit were on ships in taskforces so I had to separate all the ship back down depending on what units they were carrying). Basically I've become aware that unless your ready for the invasion don't let a invasion force enter any enemy base hex unless your ready to go for it!!!



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 12:38:55 AM)

Hmm, weird, that really doesn't happen to me... Still, probably a good precaution to take.

So, 600 load points per ship ( allowing for 3/4 of the day to be available for unloading )... Makes sense. One can go to 1400 load points if you are OK with unloading over two days. 3/4 of first day and all of 2nd day.

That seems to give a good bit of punch to the invasion whilst minimising the number of ships needed. Not quite as strong as if you can carry the whole force on a multitude of ships but it is a good solution for the Japanese player who never has as many ships as he needs.

Right, that's what I'll do vs Hartwig then.



heenanc -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 12:53:31 AM)

"Hmm, weird, that really doesn't happen to me..."

That's a bit weird it happened to me every single time. I play stock but don't think the Mod type would have a effect on that type of thing?



Nemo121 -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 12:55:36 AM)

Ah, I think I know what it might be. I have a habit of changing my transport TFs and amphibious TFs to ESCORT until such time as they are at the base.

ESCORT TFs probably don't auto-unload a little drab at the base. SO, the next day I change them to transport and then have them unload normally. Neat little trick which avoids me getting shafted by the game.... Nothing to do with the mod.



heenanc -> RE: Shock attack on Atolls (3/24/2009 1:06:59 AM)

Good little trick for the book, I think it's come a bit late for me in my current PBEM however certainly one for future PBEM's this little problem did cause me problems all over the map when I set out as Japan (absolute starter as Japan). I can thing of 3 major invasions when it did caused problems. A simple change of the TF type would be a welcome solution.



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