Transport Fleets (Full Version)

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NeverMan -> Transport Fleets (4/6/2009 4:24:35 PM)

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.



Mardonius -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/6/2009 5:24:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?


I'd get rid of the transport and allow the fleets (heavies, I guess, if we have light and heavies) to carry a full corps as per the original game. The transport fleets are not useful as they have the 3 MP limit and are a liability in regards to PP. There is no reason why a fleet could not transport an army more than 3 areas... been so since the days of the Pharohs...



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 1:43:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.


They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!







NeverMan -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 1:59:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.


They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!







Don't use them?? I HAVE to, you have forced me to. Turkey had more corps carrying fleets that could actually go somewhere. I mean what are these transports, freaking row boats? Small sail boats? Seriously!

These were added but with little regard to how they would effect the game. Turkey doesn't get a lot of money so buying more heavies is almost out of the question (yes, turkey could do it but how long and for how much and at what risk?)

They are silly and need to go in ANY scenario.

EDIT: You can use the lights? This is news to me. I haven't been able to load a corps onto any light fleet in any of my games, including AI games. I guess I'm missing something here.

IF you can use light fleets than my point still stands but the reasoning has changed: why bother with transports at all!?



easterner -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:20:17 AM)

I like new fleets. I invaded Sardinia with a light fleet.  There is a formula for transporting in the rules. CAV eats up transport capacity. My TRNS have zipped frrom N. Sea to Med and back. it's purely an adapt and improvise situation. Merchants did about 8kn, Warships around 13kn Frigates, 9-10kn for SOL



ndrose -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 4:48:13 AM)

I think the problem is not so much that the transports were added (though I agree they are rather silly) as that the capabilities of the regular fleets were diminished. In the boardgame, you could carry one corps per fleet iirc, whereas now you are limited to a certain number of infantry etc. per fleet factor.

I think that is partly justified since it is silly to be able to carry a full corps on a 1-factor fleet. A pro-rated system makes sense to me.

However, it doesn't work well as is, because no matter how many ships you have you can never carry a full French corps (or some of the larger Prussian corps) without transports, because they have too many factors to go on even a full heavy fleet. Light fleets can technically be used for transport, but in reality they're worthless because they can't carry even the littlest British corps. If you're going to have a factors-per-ship rule, you should be able to combine fleets for transport, so that (for instance) 31 heavies in two fleets could carry the French I corps. Then even light fleets could have some purpose if you stacked enough of them together.

I can see that there might be some coding difficulties involved, but surely some form of stacking-for-transport could be implemented.



hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 11:13:13 AM)

Hi Guys,
I have to get involved with this debate, it's naval it is my domain! The problem with the Transports is there movement restriction of 3MP, this is wrong they should have the same movement as the heavy & light fleets 7MP all ships depend on the wind for movement, no wind = no movement,so light to moderate winds has very little advantage for light frigates compared to heavies and transports.
The heavy and light ships moved at the same speed as the merchant transports in convoy to protect the merchant ships,they left port together and they arrived at there destination together.What is good for the goose is good for the gander so to speak, the transports or merchants call them what you like are vital, they are cheaper to build,they can be used as a depot for supplys and they carried more men & horses.
I see no reason why a transport fleet could not be 50 in size,more than enough to carry even the largest corps? I mean there were thousands of these ships built in this period in time. So removing there movement restriction and increasing there fleet size makes them a more useful addition to this game.

Ok! I will explain the purpose of the transports / merchants in todays terms TRADE. If you have no merchant marine the world would grind to a halt fact, the world relies on merchant ships for trade with other countries the cars we use today depend on the super tankers carring the oil to the refineries, if there are no merchant ships then there is no reason for a navy to protect them.



hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 1:07:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?


I'd get rid of the transport and allow the fleets (heavies, I guess, if we have light and heavies) to carry a full corps as per the original game. The transport fleets are not useful as they have the 3 MP limit and are a liability in regards to PP. There is no reason why a fleet could not transport an army more than 3 areas... been so since the days of the Pharohs...


Yo this is a first for me I disagree with Mardonius! The reason why the transports are not useful in the game is because of there movement restriction 3 MP, answer remove the restriction and make them the same as the heavies and lights 7 MP. Also if you increase there fleet size to 50 they will be able to carry even the largest CORPS! These 2 simple steps make them very useful in the game yes / no mhhhh?



obsidiandrag -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 1:23:09 PM)

The Transport fleet size is something like 127 max ship factors in each already so thats done.  But as for the 3 movement, I have just learned to use that and count that as the balancing for the extra capacity of them.  Take the Turkish for instance, the fleet of 12 can carry one corps either a stripped down jannisary or an (inf only) nizami, or 1 infantry feudal where the transport can take ANY corps, or even 2 feudals EASILY from greece to Cyrenica, and is perfect for bouncing 2 feudals around for the conquest of N. Africa and even to Naples on turn 1.  The only problem I have with the transports is that the troops can not stay on the transport while at sea over the turn.  This is what limits the movement to going along ports or sea invasion areas then reloading again in the next port to go again.  But, the transport works great as a mobile invasion supply for an even larger army marching along the N. African coast from Egypt all the way to Morocco as long as they stay near the water.  The worst thing is protecting them with the smaller combat fleets.  Maybe we could even think about making more than just 1 fleet marker per major power of transports as all of the transport ships of a nation do not usually go to and from the same place at the same time...



hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 1:36:32 PM)

Hi obsdiandragon,
I see no reason why transports should be restricted to 3MP, they can carry more than enough food and water for the Infantry & horses on board for longer voyages at sea, so the game restriction of 3 MP is unjustified and has no logic behind it. Some of the transports only carried food and water on board for that very reason,so as to sustain the fleet for longer periods at sea so 7 MP should be implemented soon as possible. The stupid rule of transports having to unload and reload in 1 turn is not needed and should be removed,transports are not any different than heavies or lights.

Also your point of more than 1 fleet is valid as you should be able to land Infantry etc to more than one destination point.



Mardonius -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 2:49:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I think that is partly justified since it is silly to be able to carry a full corps on a 1-factor fleet. A pro-rated system makes sense to me.


Nathan:
In the older system, the fleets abstracted the nation's merchants fleets. So the "1" factor fleet is representing a merchant/transport fleet as well. Works well in that a merchant fleet capacity can not be destroyed.



Mardonius -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 2:53:00 PM)

Graham:

If you have the Heavy Fleets be able to transport a corps (of any size) you get rid of any need for a transport fleet counter. Think of the multiple ports that Napoleon's expedition to Egypt (and Malta) came out of and you will see how the abstraction works well. This is how it was in the original game and it worked well as there was alwasy the potential of a naval action/invasion.

best
Varick



easterner -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 2:53:15 PM)

Law of unintended consequences.

The Rules As Written requires players to think and discourage typical gamesmanship wargamers use. Merchant ships actually have to go merchanting. The reduced speed reflects that ships are not always available, becalming, storms and bad weather restrict their use. Merchants have skeleton crews and are inefficient to keep costs down. They lose speed in convoy. They can't move 360 degrees as they can not sail into the wind. They lose speed when tacking, wearing, and when not receiving wind at rearward angle. They do maneuvers slowly not drilled as in navies who view merchants as 'lubberly.' Wargamers insist on maximum performance yet history shows otherwise. Like Guadalcanal players have 18 ships so dispatch 18 ships yet historically sent 5. History is replete with real lifers never maximizing assets and wargamers always do unless rules stop them. Take SPI's War Between The States. US would load a corps on a train and leave them there for weeks until needed and then zip the entrained mobile reserve unit to the front when needed. Lincoln never thought of that, but by god gamers sure did. Units are staffed with real people not cardboard or pixels.



hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:03:51 PM)

Hey Folks,
My point is the 3 MP is wrong, Britain sent Infantry to garrison the penial colonys in Australia, it was a long voyage and they did not disembark untill they reached Aus.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:13:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.


They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!







Don't use them?? I HAVE to, you have forced me to. Turkey had more corps carrying fleets that could actually go somewhere. I mean what are these transports, freaking row boats? Small sail boats? Seriously!

These were added but with little regard to how they would effect the game. Turkey doesn't get a lot of money so buying more heavies is almost out of the question (yes, turkey could do it but how long and for how much and at what risk?)

They are silly and need to go in ANY scenario.

EDIT: You can use the lights? This is news to me. I haven't been able to load a corps onto any light fleet in any of my games, including AI games. I guess I'm missing something here.

IF you can use light fleets than my point still stands but the reasoning has changed: why bother with transports at all!?


Transports were a part of the original requirement in the game BUT I am uncertain as to why we placed "3" move points??? I can move these back to 7 if this would help???




hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:16:59 PM)

Hi Mardonius,
Nappy made a few stop along the way to Egypt, Mainly to pick up additional ships and Infantry that were in that part of Europe, If all his forces had been available to him from his initial port of departure, there would have been no need for him to stop at ports along the way, he could have sailed from France - Egypt none stop.



hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:22:35 PM)

Hi Marshall,
Can we alter the 3 MP allowance via the editor, if so problem solved already then players who want to can change it to 7 MP for Transports. I just want to be able to alter the game to suit me since in the end it's me who will be playing against the AI.



hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:34:07 PM)

Hey I don't need a history lesson on the sailing quailities of different ship types, no 2 ships are the same period ! some heavies were quicker than frigates and some merchants could out sail a heavy.



NeverMan -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:36:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Can we get rid of these already?? They are so damn useless it's amazing. They are about as wanted as a narc at a biker rally.

When a fleet can't carry a corps from Constan. to N. Africa in 1 turn what use is it?

If you were going to implement this seriously then some other rules needed to be modified.

Problems continue to persist with this game because, like so many other failed software applications, the design process was not fully complete (or maybe wasn't well thought out) before this game began to be implemented. This is a classic software mistake and something every software engineering and software engineering company/firm should know.


They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!







Don't use them?? I HAVE to, you have forced me to. Turkey had more corps carrying fleets that could actually go somewhere. I mean what are these transports, freaking row boats? Small sail boats? Seriously!

These were added but with little regard to how they would effect the game. Turkey doesn't get a lot of money so buying more heavies is almost out of the question (yes, turkey could do it but how long and for how much and at what risk?)

They are silly and need to go in ANY scenario.

EDIT: You can use the lights? This is news to me. I haven't been able to load a corps onto any light fleet in any of my games, including AI games. I guess I'm missing something here.

IF you can use light fleets than my point still stands but the reasoning has changed: why bother with transports at all!?


Transports were a part of the original requirement in the game BUT I am uncertain as to why we placed "3" move points??? I can move these back to 7 if this would help???




Immensely! Better yet, since some seem to really like it make it an option: "Limited Transport Fleet Movement" On/Off?

I disagree that the Transport fleet is good for attacking N Africa. Turkey should be able to move back and forth from Const. to Egypt and the Trans fleet is unable to do so.

Also, I don't really care about historical aspects of the game at least not in a "strict" sense. I care about playability and right now I have a counter I have rarely used in any of my games because it is almost seemingly useless.



hellfirejet -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 3:58:29 PM)

I'm not against Heavies or Light fleets transporting any size of Corps, but the transports are cheaper and quicker to build, I'm hoping I might be able to implement various option via the editor, there is no logical reason to restrict the transports to 3 MP and for having them unload and reload is a farce, I have never played the game untill this version appeared, so I have no prior knowledge of what went before. As for heavies I think that I read somewhere that original rules listed them as 50 guns I could be wrong don't know, but if not then the original rules were crap in my opinion.

Does anyone know were I can get a copy of the original rules for this game, I'm interested in reading them so that I can get a better picture of the difference between the original and this pc version?



Jimmer -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 4:26:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
They will be gone in the classic scenario (When/if we do this).
If you do not like them then don't use them. You can use the heavies and lights to xport!

This isn't correct. All powers are REQUIRED by the game to set up all of their ships, whether they want/need them or not. So, for the whole game, we have to pay for the transport fleet every quarter. Plus, we have to protect it, or lose a PP. Of course, we could trade the PP for the money, but ...



Mardonius -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 4:36:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hi Mardonius,
Nappy made a few stop along the way to Egypt, Mainly to pick up additional ships and Infantry that were in that part of Europe, If all his forces had been available to him from his initial port of departure, there would have been no need for him to stop at ports along the way, he could have sailed from France - Egypt none stop.



Only stop was at Malta. All reinforcements joined him under sail from ports in NW Italy.



obsidiandrag -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/7/2009 5:00:53 PM)

I'm good for the option on movement, as for the carrying capacity of heavy/light, I kindof like where it is as more reasonable for proportion fleet to corps.  It adds a little more strategy and planning(which does bite me in the rear once and a while) as you have to prepare your cargo(troops) on the reinforcement phase to fit on your ships prior to the naval phase...  Otherwise, once on the Naval phase your troops will not fit and can not be modified until land or the next reinforcement phase...  But I have scalled down the French corps to 14 inf and 3 cav to go by sea and resupply the troops at the destination back to full size on reinforcement of a later turn.  Its all in the strategy and timing. 

The 1 corps per fleet marker makes the game really unfair if you compare the Austrian Army vs navy with NO heavies to the english army to the navy with so many markers IT could transport the entire French army as well just because of the number of counters available with or without actual ships in it.

Without the current transports, Austria and Prussia ARE landlocked and destined to stay that way.



pzgndr -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/8/2009 12:45:23 AM)

quote:

Of course, we could trade the PP for the money, but ...


Speaking of pp, shouldn't the loss for light fleets and transports really be -1/2pp?? With the upcoming Editor and ability to keep light fleets and transports or not (rendering this issue moot), this should help with pp balance in either case (classic EiA or EiANW). I still do not see this happening yet?

quote:

In the boardgame, you could carry one corps per fleet iirc, whereas now you are limited to a certain number of infantry etc. per fleet factor.
I think that is partly justified since it is silly to be able to carry a full corps on a 1-factor fleet. A pro-rated system makes sense to me.


I agree. I generally like the EiANW system but question the limit of only one transport fleet per MP with such high transport capacity. With the Editor players can experiment with customizing the OOBs where GB and Fr could have two or more transport fleets of modest size, then you could have transports in both Atlantic and Med. Prussia and Austria might still have only one transport fleet but of limited capacity. Etc.



ess1 -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/9/2009 5:17:16 PM)

You could retain the 3 MP but allow transports to remain at sea.
An option?



AresMars -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/9/2009 9:54:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

I'm not against Heavies or Light fleets transporting any size of Corps, but the transports are cheaper and quicker to build, I'm hoping I might be able to implement various option via the editor, there is no logical reason to restrict the transports to 3 MP and for having them unload and reload is a farce, I have never played the game untill this version appeared, so I have no prior knowledge of what went before. As for heavies I think that I read somewhere that original rules listed them as 50 guns I could be wrong don't know, but if not then the original rules were crap in my opinion.

Does anyone know were I can get a copy of the original rules for this game, I'm interested in reading them so that I can get a better picture of the difference between the original and this pc version?


http://eia.xnetz.com/ for the EIA rules

This game is 'based' on the Empires in Harms v3.x version and you have to join the YAHOO Groups for a peek at those...

Changing the MP from 3 to 7 seems the easiest fix....






obsidiandrag -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/9/2009 10:36:32 PM)

I would think if you could just build a depot where you stop at sea for sea supply on your land phase (just like the invasion supply) and pay for them like normal just while still on the transports that would be a real quick fix.  Since you would need to pay to feed them anyway, the depots there already, its just tieing the two together and allowing them to stay and eat there.

I wonder if both could be options to choose from like the 3 move no stay, 3 move allow stay, 7 move no stay, and even a 7 move allow stay...
(or just 2 seperate options one for movement and the other for allowing for long trips with remaining onboard)

I'm all for the multi functionality and options..

OD



Mardonius -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/9/2009 10:49:23 PM)

Gents:

Respectfully, I think that most of you are missing the issue here. The naval fleet counters in the original game represented not only the ships of the navy, but the potential of that nation to take to the sea: its maritime traditon, capability, heritage etc.

The Transport Counter, at the expense of expanded fleet carrying capacity, is a bad idea. It represents the concept of there being a military fleet of transport vessels on hand and in a central location, something like the USMC's Maritime Pre-positioning fleet of today. This was not the case. In all instances of maritime transport of troops, troops were transported on board naval vessels, or -- in far greater numbers -- in merchant vessels that were enrolled/dragooned/hired etc for the mission. There was no military transport fleet. This is an anachronism. I can provide plenty of examples of these instances. Certainly, Napoleon built trasnport vessels on the channel but they never took to sea.

The Fleet counter of the old game -- or the heavy fleet in this new game -- being able to transport a corps is the best solution. What this fleet-ca-transport-acorps does is abstractly encorporate the merchant fleet capacity of the transporting nation --something that should not be easily swept away as the trasnport fleet counter is. When you stike down that transport fleet, all of the hitherto abstracted and dispersed merchant naval capacity of the target nation is gone. Swept away. This makes the current naval combat system even more lethargic and problematic.

Certainly, such a fleet and corps could be vulnerable if it only contained one HS (Ship of the Line). This vulnerablity has and will limit the use of these fleets, as there is a large risk of loosing your corps and your fleet. But it does a great job of capturing the concept of the merchant fleet enrolled to transport troops and all the risks inherent therein. And it keeps the game alive and a bit more vital at sea.

Just some observations from a man who spends a good chunk of his time plotting naval operations landing troops on hostile shores.

Semper Fi,
Mardonius







Marshall Ellis -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/10/2009 3:44:21 PM)

Mardonius:

Good points on the abstraction of the fleets!
What do you think the transports represented in EiH?




Mardonius -> RE: Transport Fleets (4/10/2009 4:11:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Mardonius:

Good points on the abstraction of the fleets!
What do you think the transports represented in EiH?




Hi Marshall:

For those who might be reading/wathcin, here is the transport fleet excerpt from EiH 4.0: 6.2.2.5 Transport Fleet:

These represent large concentrations of small transport vessels, build or gathered to conduct ambitious amphibious operations, such as Napoleon’s planned invasion of England.
• Transport Fleets have a movement of “3”.
• Each naval transport factor is capable of transporting land forces, following the rules of naval transport (6.5.5). Naval transports may also perform beach evacuations (6.5.5.6)
• Naval transports do not participate in any form of naval combat. If the stack of which they are a part, participates in combat, they are treated as not being present. The only exception to this is if all other Squadron and Fleets in their stack become either damaged or sunk, the Transport Fleet (and any passengers) are captured. If the stack of which they are a part, retreats or pursues, the Transport Fleet move with the stack.

(Break)

These transports would have some historical founding in Napoleon's Planned invasion of England... but that is about it. I would argue that the building of these transports was more of an Information Operations Campaign (to screw with the Brits/Austrians) in preparation for the Austerlitz campaign. They never put to sea.

I think the same benefit without the increase cost of building/maintaining (remember, you are basically taking a $1 away from all countries that have these fleets per economic phase) the fleets can be encompassed thoroughly by allowing any HS fleet to carry any corps. Not to mention the whole PP exchange for losing a battle with Transports involved. So, with the abstraction concept, France could, typically put together a big invasion force... but it would be very vulnerable to interception. But the threat of invasion would not go away 100% if the invasion fleet was destroyed as a new collection of boats/ships could be garnered up from various merchantmen and fishermen. This potential was on the minds of the Brits durign the entire period. As things stand now in our game, GB is almost invulnerable.

So, I would scrap the transports and allow the HS fleets (only... no Lt Ship transporting) to each carry a corps.

best
Mardonius






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