Disband/Withdraw System (Full Version)

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pad152 -> Disband/Withdraw System (4/10/2009 4:25:57 PM)

When a land unit is scheduled to disband/withdrawn, what happens?

Does the unit just disappear?

Do you have to ship the unit back to Japan or US west coast?






Andy Mac -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/10/2009 9:06:48 PM)

Nope it just dissapears you are well warned then the go poof

Minimum of player effort and its not possible to stop it with PP's

(They tend to be formations heading to other theatres)



pad152 -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/10/2009 10:05:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Nope it just dissapears you are well warned then the go poof

Minimum of player effort and its not possible to stop it with PP's

(They tend to be formations heading to other theatres)



Every land unit I've seen the AAR's seems to have a withdraw date, just what other theatres would Japanese be going too?

Even if the unit is engaged in combat, (same hex as an enemy unit) or cutoff by enemy forces?

Sending disbanding units into territory with no risk of loss because they just go poof, sounds pretty gamey



Oldguard1970 -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/10/2009 10:40:57 PM)

"Sending disbanding units into territory with no risk of loss because they just go poof, sounds pretty gamey"

Yep... of course it is not possible to design a complex game in such a way that cunning gamers cannot find exploits. I'm sure this is one of the areas where opponents will sort out their preferences.  Some will not worry about it at all, noting that each side can "play that game".  Some will hate it and forbid it through HRs or a gentlemen's understanding.  Some might even take great delight in seeing what can happen with a full effort to "win the game" rather than "recreate history".  (Remember the "Lunacy game AAR"?)



pad152 -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/10/2009 11:51:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970

"Sending disbanding units into territory with no risk of loss because they just go poof, sounds pretty gamey"

Yep... of course it is not possible to design a complex game in such a way that cunning gamers cannot find exploits. I'm sure this is one of the areas where opponents will sort out their preferences. Some will not worry about it at all, noting that each side can "play that game". Some will hate it and forbid it through HRs or a gentlemen's understanding. Some might even take great delight in seeing what can happen with a full effort to "win the game" rather than "recreate history". (Remember the "Lunacy game AAR"?)


Things that just go poof is gamey all by itself. Ship withdraw doesn't work like this!



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 12:21:29 AM)

Sounds like the unit should be sent to a withdrawl base prior to withdrawl date or PP penalty is paid (like ships). Poof goes the unit sounds like a bad idea given the AE team is working hard to eliminate other gamey design features.



Andy Mac -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 12:23:39 AM)

Most of the units that WITHDRAW are restricted and cannot be loaded on ships anyway so while they can march overland they are restricted

DISBANDED units are different the devices from those units return to pool and are needed especially some of the key Infantry Squads - so you can use them in gamey nasty attacks but if you do and lose them don't compalin when you cannot keep other units up to strength.....

Yes the system is different from ships



Andy Mac -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 12:38:11 AM)

It aint changing now - that much I can say.

The Disband/Withdraw system for LCU's is not something you can stop other than via the global ignore withdrawal/disband toggle

There are less than a dozen Japanese units and the allied ones are now quite specific e.g. 5th British Div - you could technically march it into Burma (it cannot be loaded on ships) but that leaves India more vulnerable

Everything has compromises





Terminus -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 1:08:18 AM)

And this is a mild one.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 1:18:06 AM)

Ahhh...forgot about restricted commands. Makes sense now. By the way...don't mind me.[;)]



Terminus -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 1:20:33 AM)

And in case you missed it in Andy's post, there's a global OFF switch for withdrawals.



jwilkerson -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 3:19:25 AM)

Unfortunately there are differences between the air withdrawal system, the naval one and the land one. This is my fault as I did not require all the teams to handle in the same way. However, the scenario designer has total control over how the various features as used. It is not required to use withdrawals at all.

Originally the IJA Land team wanted withdrawls to help model the upgrades of many Independent Mixed Brigades to full divisions. In stock this is modeled just by having both units - the brigades and the divisions. The AE team did not think this solution was very elegant. We wanted to be able to set the withdrawal date for the brigades and then bring in the divisions. Later, we asked for and got a TOE upgrade feature and also a unit rename feature. Used in combination these allowed us to switch the modeling of the upgrades of the brigdes to divisions from using the withdrawal feature to using the upgrade/rename features together. So the system has evolved and the use of the features with it.

At this point I suspect the vast bulk of land unit withdrawals are on the Allied side. But there were IJA and IJN land units that were disbanded during the real war. These situations were examined on a case by case basis and decisions made within what the AE team felt were the best balance between historical accuracy and the limitations of the game system.



pad152 -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 5:13:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Unfortunately there are differences between the air withdrawal system, the naval one and the land one. This is my fault as I did not require all the teams to handle in the same way. However, the scenario designer has total control over how the various features as used. It is not required to use withdrawals at all.

Originally the IJA Land team wanted withdrawls to help model the upgrades of many Independent Mixed Brigades to full divisions. In stock this is modeled just by having both units - the brigades and the divisions. The AE team did not think this solution was very elegant. We wanted to be able to set the withdrawal date for the brigades and then bring in the divisions. Later, we asked for and got a TOE upgrade feature and also a unit rename feature. Used in combination these allowed us to switch the modeling of the upgrades of the brigdes to divisions from using the withdrawal feature to using the upgrade/rename features together. So the system has evolved and the use of the features with it.

At this point I suspect the vast bulk of land unit withdrawals are on the Allied side. But there were IJA and IJN land units that were disbanded during the real war. These situations were examined on a case by case basis and decisions made within what the AE team felt were the best balance between historical accuracy and the limitations of the game system.



So AE has three different withdraw methods (Land, Air, Sea), PP's can't be used for land unit withdraws, what about AIR and/or Sea units?

quote:

global OFF switch for withdrawals


Does the OFF switch for withdrawals, effect the upgrade of some units?



Yamato hugger -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 6:30:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Does the OFF switch for withdrawals, effect the upgrade of some units?



No. It only turns off all units that have to withdraw. If you use this switch it will be like stock WitP. In other words, you will have a LOT of duplicate units. Air units that were withdrawn to form other units (like the AVG for example) will have both pieces there. The withdrawls is one of the nicer features in AE IMHO. There are a lot of inconsistencies between the way the 3 teams do things. PPs to change command for air is based on TO&E strength while ground units are current (undamaged) strength for example.



Andy Mac -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 10:19:46 AM)

As Joe said we have different systems but the usage has evolved over the time of the build

Probably the unit that is most ripe for exploit is the British 7th Armoured Bde

It withdraws rather than disband so there are limited consequences to 'wasting it' as you dont get the devices back.

On the other hand its a significant chunk of the Battle ready fighting force that India can use in its defence.

You really don't want the waste it as it helps shield the undertrained raw Indian forces while they train up.

Most of the units have consequences.

You end up with two ways to go a system that requires micro management but gives control or a system that requires almost no micro management but the player has limited control

LCU Disband system is weighted towards managment easy at the expense of control
Naval and Air are more tilted to player control but with consequential micromanagment

It is determined by the priority of the team lead to some extent which is why its slightly inconsistent - I wanted it to be easy for players and didnt feel that even PP's reflect the true cost of keeping high profile units like the US West Coast Divs and 5th British Div - 15,000 - 20,000 men are a lot for a few PP's to control etc etc - they are just to significant to other unrepresented theatres and therefore the land system is weighted towards simplicity and automatic removal.

Air groups are slightly more fungible so PP's and player control is more reasonable in the context of the wider war (they are not as significant a chunk of war fighting capability as a Division of troops)

Each team had a slightly different concept of this area but it sorta works for me.

Andy



Terminus -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/11/2009 11:17:05 AM)

Me too. It's a good system; somebody will eventually find a gamey way to exploit it, but that's unavoidable. We're presenting a good solution here.



borjsgm -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/13/2009 12:43:23 AM)

So what I am seeing here leads me to believe that we can manually disband units, say the PI units? Especially as they become rundown and combat ineffective?
I like the fact that the air groups will auto withdraw. By 44 there are so many allied air groups that there is barely space to hold them all...

And since I have been reading some of the really whiny sounding posts, let me say that waiting for several months/a few years really isn't that big of a deal. Thank you to all of you who are working this miracle of time suck. I can't wait to spend a few months eating poorly and not sleeping well. Oh wait, done that one already, only I was also getting shot at too...this one promises to be much more civilized, as it were.

borjesson (ex 1sg, now waiting for what comes next...)



TMFoss -> RE: Disband/Withdraw System (4/14/2009 2:11:17 AM)

Eating poorly and not sleeping well (or enough)....   I do that now and nobody is shooting at me.  I think it is called work, deadlines, saying "I'll do it", then saying "Why did I say that I'll do it?".  Ah...life.



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