HPS wargames for the PC? (Full Version)

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sapper_astro -> HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 1:01:09 PM)

I have only recently become aware of the HPS wargames, ie; Squad battles, Panzer campaigns, etc, and am intrigued by them.

Can anyone who has played these games give their impressions and thoughts on them? The ups and downs? I cannot believe these games have been hiding away so well for years it seems, especially if they are good games.



Arsan -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 2:22:34 PM)

Hi!
I’m not a great fan of them. I just tried two or three of them (one Panzer Campaigns, one Napoleonic and the Punic Wars one. Never tried Squad battles).
In my opinion, they are really old school games in the worst sense of the word, with appalling graphics (even for a wargame) pretty bad Ai and lots and lots of micromanagement (of the boring kind).
One can also think that each series is basically the same game with new scenarios added as new games. Probably TOAW III includes all the WWII battles released as dozens of separate full price games. Surely not with so much detail, but with a better Ai and more innovative game mechanics.

For what I know HPS games are an evolution (or involution at least in the graphical sense) of the 90’s John Tillers Battleground series, offered here as a bundle.

On the positive side, I guess it really help with the learning curve to use the same system and interface on 30+ games. Once you know to play one, you can just jump in and play the rest.
Also for what I’ve heard the scenarios OOB and the like are top notch.
And they have a quite big and dedicated PBEM community.
Also if I remember right, they use to retrofit new improvements done on the engine (even if they are little) to older titles of the series, which is always a commendable thing.

Regards!



BAL -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 2:35:21 PM)

Deleted by original poster.



sapper_astro -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 2:48:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BAL


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I have only recently become aware of the HPS wargames, ie; Squad battles, Panzer campaigns, etc, and am intrigued by them.

Can anyone who has played these games give their impressions and thoughts on them? The ups and downs? I cannot believe these games have been hiding away so well for years it seems, especially if they are good games.


My advice is to ask this question somewhere other than a competitors site. Try theblitz.org, gamesquad or wargamer. You might get a more balanced answer.



Surely we are not children that blindly attack other companies products? I thought most of us were a little old for that kind of rubbish?

I own games from all the major players, including Matrix, Battlefront, Paradox and I also bought Making History: The calm and the storm. I can happily recommend games from all of these companies, and also point out flawed games from them as well.

In any case, opinions are wanted. Just say it how it is honestly, not because of where the game is being sold. It will not make me buy less games from Matrix. I own all of the games I want here at the present time.



sapper_astro -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 2:53:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

Hi!
I’m not a great fan of them. I just tried two or three of them (one Panzer Campaigns, one Napoleonic and the Punic Wars one. Never tried Squad battles).
In my opinion, they are really old school games in the worst sense of the word, with appalling graphics (even for a wargame) pretty bad Ai and lots and lots of micromanagement (of the boring kind).
One can also think that each series is basically the same game with new scenarios added as new games. Probably TOAW III includes all the WWII battles released as dozens of separate full price games. Surely not with so much detail, but with a better Ai and more innovative game mechanics.

For what I know HPS games are an evolution (or involution at least in the graphical sense) of the 90’s John Tillers Battleground series, offered here as a bundle.

On the positive side, I guess it really help with the learning curve to use the same system and interface on 30+ games. Once you know to play one, you can just jump in and play the rest.
Also for what I’ve heard the scenarios OOB and the like are top notch.
And they have a quite big and dedicated PBEM community.
Also if I remember right, they use to retrofit new improvements done on the engine (even if they are little) to older titles of the series, which is always a commendable thing.

Regards!



Thanks for that. The primary game system I am interested in is the Squad battles one, though they all sound quite interesting.

Using the same engine is actually a plus to me. I am used to happily playing through umpteen Gold box games, various wargames that retreaded engines, Jeff Vogel RPG's, etc etc. Not that I don't love something different from time to time if it works (see Conquest of the Aegean for something different that really works).

After reading various articles and reviews on the Panzer campaign system, it does seem like very heavy micromanagement. I don't mind this now and again, so I might keep my eye on a couple of them.

If anyone has some in depth observations on the Squad battle series (or any of the others) please throw them in.







Adam Parker -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 3:09:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I cannot believe these games have been hiding away so well for years it seems, especially if they are good games.


Actually in terms of titles released, HPS would have to be the biggest producer of PC wargames on the market! The bulk of these titles coming from the work of John Tiller and his teams.

For some insight, I was part of some of these teams for a few years and had a ball contributing. The pressures of a modern life alas took me away but given this background let me offer my .02.

Panzer Campaigns/Modern Campaigns - Each title takes a campaign and breaks it down into approx 30-40 scenarios. Some of these are small and the AI will pose a challenge. The meat of each title however, are the monster campaign scenarios. These are huge. Those for "Normandy 44" could take a lifetime to play - we're talking Normandy basically at the company level! Given their size the AI will struggle. Where they shine is human-human play (mainly via a very stable PBEM). Visit the site www.theblitz.org for a huge community of gamers. If you want to try a manageable campaign solo - I recommend "Market Garden 44". However, I just love Smolensk, Tobruk, Fulda and Korea 85. Learning curve - 15 minutes.

Napoleonic Campaigns, Civil War Campaigns, Early American Wars - As above, smaller scaled but we're now talking 100's of scenarios per title. HPS's "1776" fully updated is imo the best game they've ever made. And in fact, John's first for HPS. These series are historically amazing in their breadth. They beg for a 6 foot screen to play on, their maps are so big.

Squad Battles - Great AI where the terrain is close. "Vietnam" and "Eagle's Strike" are examples here. This series has just blossomed with a rulebook showing more intricacy over time. This series is nothing like the ye olde Squad Leader board game. No brevet leadership and leader husbandry is key. Lose your leaders and you will likely lose the game.

Naval Battles - Real time, pausable and I like them. The AI's here seem apt. You'll just need to get over some very plain graphics.

Modern Air Power - This series is John Tiller's baby. Pausable, real time. Funded largely through his synergistic work conducted for the US Air Force and in partnership with the Charles Roberts Award winning designer Gary "Mo" Morgan of Avalon Hill fame, this series is a work in progress, recently augmented by the Mid East air war title. It's AI could use work and it IS getting it. Look for much more to come on this front and I feel that with Mo's stewardship, this series will be worth the wait.

Total War in Europe - One title so far, division level and just not my cup of tea, largely due to a strategically bemused AI.

Air Campaigns of World War 2 - Again just one title so far - "Defending the Reich" and its my favorite game next to 1776. Turn based, best played as the Allies if solo and a great romp planning then executing bombing raids over occupied Europe. Unit husbandry is key. Much easier and quicker to play than Talonsoft's "12 o'Clock High" etc., by a long margin. A much better UI.

Ancient Warfare - Some people love it. I'm abhorred by the graphics.

Musket and Pike - Too new for me to say.

The thing about HPS, is it's of the few companies that publishes rock stable games out of the wrapper. SSG is another example. A series' titles are usually fully updated on the release of a new game. Something very rare.

If buying a Panzer Campaigns or Modern Campaigns title, head off to http://www.volcanomods.com for the series' semi official alt art. It really improves the feel of most games - though I hate the uniform pocket theme - you'll see what I mean - and you can get rid of those by keeping the stock art for the unit box backgrounds.

Also, HPS's biggest flaw right now - no digital downloads. To run such a service costs money and currently, it's not in their business model. Maybe in the future so we're told.

I hope that all helps!

Best,
Adam.



JudgeDredd -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 3:13:30 PM)

I had one of the Vietnam Squad Battles ones. I'm no critic so all I can pipe up with is I liked it, although it didn't hold interest for long as there was no campaign.

I also have Modern Air War and although I like that, I just seemed to find issues with it...one of the most glaring (and annoying) is a desert map I was playing I had to do some counter air...there were no plotted enemy airfields...almost like they didn't exist until I was able to detect them with ground radar...and when I left the area it was gone again??? So I enjoy this but find it infuriating with little issues like that (there are defo more but I can't remember them...haven't played it in a while).

I think if the lack of a campaign doesn't bother you, then I could probably push myself to recommend the Vietnam Squad Battles series.




sapper_astro -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 3:19:39 PM)

Adam, absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much for that as it has given me much to mull over and think on.

Judge, the two squad leaders I am mainly looking at are the Spanish Civil war and the Winter war (more may follow) apparently have 2 and 3 campaigns included respectively.

All in all, some of these games are sounding very interesting.

Edit: Also, how is the documentation with the games? I assume as they are sent, that a nice manual is sent as well?



JudgeDredd -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 3:45:23 PM)

I didn't see a printed manual with Modern Air Power or Squad Battles. I only had pdf with those...I can't speak for the others.



BAL -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 3:49:34 PM)

quote:

Surely we are not children that blindly attack other companies products? I thought most of us were a little old for that kind of rubbish?


Most aren't...some are. Of course, the same could be said of the sites I mentioned. Adam Parker gave a fair desription.



Sarge -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 4:21:34 PM)

Honestly ?

HPS squad battles, panzer campaigns and first blitz are some of my favorite game engines in the hobby , Tiller and his team/s as A Parker pointed out in his post have produced a staggering number of quality titles. You really can’t go wrong with any of HPS titles.

One draw back to their product IMHO is the graphics, personally I think its time for HPS to invest in some art work and drop the chartreuse mid 90’s graphics. [sm=vomit-smiley-020.gif]



eastwindrain -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 4:59:42 PM)

Appalling graphics, well maybe you should take a look at what's on display here before you criticize others.
And I bet the best one's are the older Talonsoft Battleground Napoleonic and ACW titles and WW2 Campaign Series all from Mr John Tiller now producing HPS games. Futhermore TOAW was another Talonsoft game that Matrix picked up !!!.

There is only one reason I come to this site which is of coure for WitP.
Lets compare similar products like Korsun Pocket or Battle of the Bulge and you will see which one's are superior.
It's the Matrix games which contain the retarded art, the maps are appalling and we get a constant stream of re-jigged ancient game systems such as Wacht on the Rhien etc.

Apart from pbem WitP I mostly pbem HPS Panzer Campaign titles against some wonderful fellow wargamers.
The AI as in most games is only for gett'in to grips with the basic mechanics.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND HPS GAMES TO ANY SERIOUS FELLOW WARGAMERS.
And yes your at the wrong site to ask about any HPSSIMS games.



Sarge -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 5:08:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlander

Appalling graphics, well maybe you should take a look at what's on display here before you criticize others.



Maybe you should lighten up a-bit

See the IMHO …………that means in my humble opinion
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
One draw back to their product IMHO is the graphics, personally I think its time for HPS to invest in some art work and drop the chartreuse mid 90’s graphics.


Silly me I thought that’s what the author of the thread “sapper” was asking for ……opinions


BTW read the whole thread its hardly my sole opinion…………… [8|]



Yogi the Great -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 5:09:00 PM)

I have more HPS games then any other company's.

I have about 4 of the squad battles series and they are fun.  I have many titles in the civil war, panzer and napoleonic campaigns.  I enjoy all of them.  As for a comment above about them being "old school games" it is a fair comment.  Probably why I like them.  I'm an old school wargame guy from back in the old Avalon Hill board game days.  The HPS games are among the closest things to them.

I play almost entirely solitare.  So the biggest gripe for me is a usual one, the AI needs great improvement, especially on the campaign series games.  Lousy defense, and even worse tendency of the AI to make suicidal attacks again and again.  I find that games against the AI usually are exciting for awhile, until it eventually turns into a slaughter as it has no ability to set up a good defense and can't seem to stop attacking and moving into sure death situations.  The Squad Battles series isn't too bad of an AI.  Also if you are in to fancy graphics and glitz, HPS games won't be your cup of tea.

In closing though, I do like the classic feel of HPS games.



Yogi the Great -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 5:12:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

Edit: Also, how is the documentation with the games? I assume as they are sent, that a nice manual is sent as well?


No manual, comes on disc with game. Also (as is common today) they have regular updates to the games that can be downloaded directly from HPS.



SVal06 -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 5:15:33 PM)

Adam, you forget the First blitzkrieg which is a good game and fun as attacker (ie Ai is not too bad on defense compared to other HPS games (Pzc and Napoleonic ones)).

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/TWIE/Blitz/blitz.html



eastwindrain -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 5:27:15 PM)

OK let's enlighten up a little bit.
This is a screenshot from the mod Decision in Russia for HPS Korsun'44.

[image]local://upfiles/18923/0A6492EEF23D4F22BE3C08E33FACAD25.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 5:36:02 PM)

Ok, first of all, it's fine to ask about HPS games here. Many of our community play them and own them. I own quite a few myself. I think the graphics are functional and we have a few games that also have functional graphics. I like HPS' games and I wouldn't take criticism of the graphics, AI or micromanagement personally. For the most part, their games shine in PBEM play and they showcase incredible historical research and detail. There are scenarios that have very few units to manage and others that are huge and require a lot of unit management.

I certainly don't appreciate the reply by Lowlander, which was basically just bashing us in response to the original reply. If you feel the need to bash us in order to defend HPS (a company we like) against a random post on a forum, then you've got to re-consider your priorities and what you think you're really accomplishing with a knee-jerk response like that. We do not tell people what opinions to write here and this forum is for discussion of wargaming in general, not just Matrix Games.

I think most fans of HPS use the aforementioned Volcano Mods (I do as well) to improve the graphics of the games. It's a sad fact that wargame development budgets are simply not huge and they will often be less flashy than other kinds of games graphically. For example, I really enjoy our Guns of August game, but I was glad when Gary Krockover did a modded map and counter set, which for me was much easier on the eyes. If someone told me they didn't like the original GOA graphics, I'd simply point them to Gary's mod (now included in the official updates) rather than bashing them about it.

To everyone, as I've said before, discussion of games from other publishers and developers is well within the topic of this forum, just don't bash. If you're going to be critical of us or anyone else, provide some real facts to support your assertions and try to give a constructive suggestion if you highlight a perceived problem rather than just griping.

To respond to the original poster, I would definitely recommend the HPS games. Try one and see how it goes for you, but I'd guess you'll enjoy it.

Regards,

- Erik




Sarge -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 5:36:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

Surely we are not children that blindly attack other companies products? I thought most of us were a little old for that kind of rubbish?



Looks like Lowlander is clearing this one up for all to see.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlander

There is only one reason I come to this site which is of coure for WitP.
Lets compare similar products like Korsun Pocket or Battle of the Bulge and you will see which one's are superior.
It's the Matrix games which contain the retarded art, the maps are appalling and we get a constant stream of re-jigged ancient game systems such as Wacht on the Rhien etc.




eastwindrain -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 6:29:41 PM)

OK, I apologise for the outburst as I took the bait, hook, line and sinker but I'm not the type of guy who stands to the side as a passive onlooker when someone launches a attack on the things I love !!!.
This has not been the first attack on HPSSIMS.
I suppose the bottom line is that we are all different with various opinions, and thank God for that as life would be so boring surrounded by clones.
But be assured I have WitP, WPO, TOAW3 and JTCS and will continue to purchase Matrix games, still waiting on AE, JTCS additions and no doubt many others.
And I will defend these games in similar circumstances at other Forums.



Arsan -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 6:33:33 PM)

I think Lowlander was quoting me and not you about the "appalling graphics" Sarge [;)][:)]
Really, Lowlander i think you are overreacting a lot. [X(]
The original poster asked for opinions and i just gave my personal opinion about the games and pointed both bad and good things about them.
As personally i don't like HPS games too much, i expressed more negative than positive things about them but i don't think i bashed them at all.

Surely HPS games are very detailed and great for PBEM players (i'm an only AI player so maybe that's why i don't like them) but i don't think even the best HPS supporter can really say they have good graphics, a strong AI or are light on the micromanagement department.

That some Matrix games have mediocre or bad graphics (and they certainly do) don't make HPS one's better.
But personally, i will take the old TOAW graphics over the PZc ones (even the modded ones you posted above) any day. Not to mention the SSG ones...
Its a matter of tastes i guess [8|]
Regards



JudgeDredd -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 6:46:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlander
And yes your at the wrong site to ask about any HPSSIMS games.

He isn't at the wrong site at all m8. And I take offense to the fact that you consider him to be and, moreover, publicise the fact.

As Erik stated, there are plenty of people who play and like HPS games who post here. He can just as easily go to other forums and ask their opinions and will probably get the same mix of responses as he will (and has) here.

I've already told him I liked the Squad Battles Vietnam game and that I still like the Modern Air Power game...I don't understand at what point any here were not being objective. He asked for opinions and that's what he got....some opinions were alot more polite than others [:-]



BAL -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 7:44:37 PM)

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Erik.  For the record I own games from HPS, Matrix, Shrapnel & others.  I guess, like others, I have too often seen certain posters (not necessarily at the Matrix forums) bash one game or company in order to tout the merits of their own favorite game or company.

In that spirit I deleted my original post.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/15/2009 11:24:56 PM)

I have many of the HPS games and play them.  Only one did I not like(Guadalcanal: Naval Campaign).  Squad battle, civilwar series I do like.   I have both the Punic and Gallic wars.  I enjoy them as well.



Grell -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/16/2009 12:13:22 AM)

I own a good number of HPS games and I adore them.[:)]

Regards,

Grell



Hertston -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/16/2009 12:17:48 AM)

Most has already been said I think, but I might as well add my proverbial 2 cents worth of opinion.

The following points are pretty general;

AI could be better but I've seen a lot worse.

Eye candy wise, the 3D graphics, when implemented, are so bad they make your eyes bleed. The easy answer, as they serve no purpose anyway, is turn them off. The 2D maps are actually quite nice, IMHO, and the counter art (where applicable) and unit portraits, which also seriously suck, can usually be replaced by fan art - 'Volcano's stuff, already mentioned is professional quality. While the games will run in any resolution, they don't scale, so you get a lot of map and very small counters at any 'modern' resolution. There are two zoom levels, but these have clearly been designed for 800x600 and 1024x768 and one you will never use. The counters don't countain enough info due to size - I much prefer those in TOAW, for example.

Wide choice of scenarios, in some cases (Gettysburg springs to mind), a vast choice of scenarios. With campaign options (where implemented) you won't get bored for a long while.

No printed manual, but you won't miss one. All the docs can be easily called up from in-game, and the systems aren't sufficiently complicated to require frequent reference.

Shop around. I buy my HPS titles from NWS; check prices and you'll see why.

As to the individual series, some highly subjective comments

1. Panzer Campaigns. There are better WW2 operational games, all of them available from Matrix.

2. Modern Campaigns. Same system as above, but more worthy of consideration because of lack of kick-ass competition. Both the Middle East and WW3 Germany series are very good.

3. Squad Battles. Best of the bunch. Every title has something to recommend it, but I particularly like the way the system handles helicopter operations. Simple, but effective and 'realistic'.

4. Civil War. Huge amount of content, particularly in later titles, including a novel and effective campaign approach.

5. Naval. The Jutland offering is actually surprisingly good, although I guess most with an interest in the battle would now plump for the Storm Eagle game.

6. Ancients. Nearly forget these, which would be a shame. I have the Punic Wars title; same story on graphics but the rest is a much more modern design (not John Tiller, in this case), which simulates the period very well and has noticeably better AI than the other games. Or maybe I'm just not as good at ancient warfare!



New York Jets -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/16/2009 12:42:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I have only recently become aware of the HPS wargames, ie; Squad battles, Panzer campaigns, etc, and am intrigued by them.

Can anyone who has played these games give their impressions and thoughts on them? The ups and downs? I cannot believe these games have been hiding away so well for years it seems, especially if they are good games.


Yes! They're very good!



V22 Osprey -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/16/2009 12:49:10 AM)

Ok, why are you guys so worried about grahpics? I thought wargames were about realism and functionality, not graphics.If you want graphics, go get Company of Heroes.[8|]

I love Panzer Campaigns and Squad Battles.They are great games, with John Tiller's look and feel interface.I dont care about the graphics, as long as they get the job done.To me though TAOW III wasn't as fun as PzC, yes you get all the battles in one game, but they werent detailed at all and felt like they were thrown together just to add a scenario on the box.Personally, I dont know much about the AI but this game really shines in PBEM.Squad Battles is by far the one of the most realistic Squad Battle game ever.The system is fantastic, even being able to drop and use dropped weapons.I highly recommend these games.



Perturabo -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/16/2009 1:19:48 AM)

Some of the games look tempting, but I'm put off by lack of local distribution (prices!) or at least digital downloads (postal prices!), demos and printed manuals.



Hertston -> RE: HPS wargames for the PC? (4/16/2009 1:47:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Ok, why are you guys so worried about grahpics? I thought wargames were about realism and functionality, not graphics.If you want graphics, go get Company of Heroes.[8|]

I love Panzer Campaigns and Squad Battles.They are great games, with John Tiller's look and feel interface.I dont care about the graphics, as long as they get the job done.


There is an awful lot of graphical ground between the HPS titles and Company of Heroes. There are limits, IMHO, and some aspects of the HPS titles cross them although as I said they can either be ignored (3D counters) or replaced (unit portraits). I like my games to look good, even if they are 2D map and counter jobs, and good means 'functional' as well; particularly the unit information given on counters in TAOW and CotA, to name but two. As I said, though, the 2D maps are fine. I agree on the interface, I've always liked it and it's universality means very little additional learning is required even across different series.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Some of the games look tempting, but I'm put off by lack of local distribution (prices!) or at least digital downloads (postal prices!), demos and printed manuals.



As I said previously, you can buy them for substantially less than HPS charge selling them direct if you shop around, and you won't miss or need a printed manual (have to trust me on that one). No demos, true.. you have to take the plunge on at least one, really.



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