Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (Full Version)

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Chocolino -> Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 3:39:22 AM)

Just found out that Mulberries can be taken out by a single successful air attack. They have to be in sight to attack them of course. They are extremely vulnerable. It is already hard to shield them against land attacks but shielding them against an air strike is neigh impossible. That strongly reduces the usefulness of a mulberry in my opinion to the point of them becoming almost without meaningful application.

The Mulberry has been introduced to allow amphibious landing at places other than port cities to make it a bit less predictable. But that means that in an amphibious setting, the attacker had to build a cordon of 4 hexes wide in the first turn around the mulberry to keep it invisible and hence in place. That leaves just situations where the usual land supply is so stretched (next city too far away) that one wants to use a nearby mulberry to boost it. That is further limited by mulberries only available in coastal hexes. But for only this it is very expensive.

In my eyes it would suffice to have air strikes reduce the supply coming from a Mulberry for the next turn, recovering slowly afterwards (maybe similar to strategic bombing reducing the resources from a city).



BlueMak -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 3:55:22 AM)

That's why you need to have complete air supremacy before you do this I guess.



Chocolino -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 4:05:23 AM)

If you read "Crossroads" for the, I believe, May 1st, 1945 turn (will be up in a day or so since my reporting lags) you will see a good example. Luckily I was the one with the airplanes since I am in no position to build Mulberries anywhere in this game.



doomtrader -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 7:53:50 AM)

Just wanted to say that the FOW can be set at various distance.



BlueMak -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 8:31:27 AM)

Does the AI get the same FOW the player gets?



doomtrader -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 9:30:17 AM)

In all my games, yes. [;)]



BlueMak -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 10:48:12 AM)

Thanks :)



IS -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 11:03:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

In all my games, yes. [;)]



Well, it is not true [sm=character0229.gif] Judging by this http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2090857 AI simply landed in Arkhangelsk with one unit, knowing that that hex was empty. AI not cheating? Don`t think so [sm=fighting0056.gif] [;)]



doomtrader -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 11:21:44 AM)

Did you tried to land on occupied hex?



BlueMak -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 12:57:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IS

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

In all my games, yes. [;)]



Well, it is not true [sm=character0229.gif] Judging by this http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2090857 AI simply landed in Arkhangelsk with one unit, knowing that that hex was empty. AI not cheating? Don`t think so [sm=fighting0056.gif] [;)]



I am playing with FOW OFF, so...



Michael the Pole -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 1:41:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chocolino

Just found out that Mulberries can be taken out by a single successful air attack. They have to be in sight to attack them of course. They are extremely vulnerable. It is already hard to shield them against land attacks but shielding them against an air strike is neigh impossible. That strongly reduces the usefulness of a mulberry in my opinion to the point of them becoming almost without meaningful application.

The Mulberry has been introduced to allow amphibious landing at places other than port cities to make it a bit less predictable. But that means that in an amphibious setting, the attacker had to build a cordon of 4 hexes wide in the first turn around the mulberry to keep it invisible and hence in place. That leaves just situations where the usual land supply is so stretched (next city too far away) that one wants to use a nearby mulberry to boost it. That is further limited by mulberries only available in coastal hexes. But for only this it is very expensive.

In my eyes it would suffice to have air strikes reduce the supply coming from a Mulberry for the next turn, recovering slowly afterwards (maybe similar to strategic bombing reducing the resources from a city).


I believe that the Mulberries should be vulnerable to air attack. If you'll remember, the Allies had OVERWHELMING air superiority over Normandy and it was pretty much worth any Luftwaffe pilot's life to even stick his nose into that airspace. If my recollection is correct, the Luftwaffe managed to provide a whopping TWO sorties over the invasion beaches on June 6, and didn't see much improvement after that due to the massive Allied air cover.
If the player can't provide absolute air superiority over his landing beaches, he shouldn't be using mulberries.



Chocolino -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 9:30:12 PM)

quote:

If the player can't provide absolute air superiority over his landing beaches, he shouldn't be using mulberries.


In terms of game mechanics, it is almost impossible (actually completely impossible for all practical purposes) to get absolute air superiority before a landing. Once you are there, it is too late. Remember, a single air attack is enough. No matter how many hundred air armies the attacker can field, only one can intercept. So I don't quite understand this comment. How do you suggest to ensure absolute air superiority before a landing in the RTV? Your opponent can hide his air units away completely so no air attacks can be forced by the attacker before the landing. Even if they are in reach of the landing hexes, the attacker needs a visible target before the landing to force air combat. That is only available in a few instances were visibility allows it and even then only if the defender happens to have units close to the landing beaches (remember there is no city, otherwise you wouldn't need the mulberry in the first place)

quote:



If you'll remember, the Allies had OVERWHELMING air superiority over Normandy and it was pretty much worth any Luftwaffe pilot's life to even stick his nose into that airspace. If my recollection is correct, the Luftwaffe managed to provide a whopping TWO sorties over the invasion beaches on June 6, and didn't see much improvement after that due to the massive Allied air cover.


So from that I take it there was Luftwaffe since there were the pilots noses. Hence the landing should have failed according to you since a single air attack would have destroyed the complete Allied supply in one shot if I follow your argument of supply vulnerability.

Your statement also fails to explain exactly why supply depots are supposedly so vulnerable. You say that a single air attack can make a large supply depot completely vanish? Severely damage for a while - absolutely, reduce supply for a while - no problem, completely vanish, sorry.....



gwgardner -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 11:33:43 PM)

Mulberries should perhaps be treated as cities are, which are strat-bombed. Otherwise they should be invulnerable to air attack.



BlueMak -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 11:36:48 PM)

Shouldn't you do an invasion in more than one beach?



jjdenver -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/20/2009 11:48:58 PM)

quote:

Just wanted to say that the FOW can be set at various distance.


Hi Doomtrader - there is a lot of confusion about naval interception of invasions in the game. Can you please explain how and when naval interception can occur of invading forces? Can it be from ports on the sea zone? By naval units already at sea? And what units are involved? Would all friendly naval units in the sea zone or in port be involved?

Thanks!



cpdeyoung -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/21/2009 12:25:34 AM)

IS - I think what doomtrader is pointing out is that you can "test" for an empty landing hex by attempting a landing. Before you commit you will be told if the hex is occupied. Air landings (paratroops) also will not allow landing on an occupied hex, but here it just won't happen.

This should, perhaps, be thought of as commando, UDT, or raider recon of beaches.

Chuck



James Ward -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/21/2009 2:02:20 AM)

"In terms of game mechanics, it is almost impossible (actually completely impossible for all practical purposes) to get absolute air superiority before a landing. Once you are there, it is too late. Remember, a single air attack is enough. No matter how many hundred air armies the attacker can field, only one can intercept. So I don't quite understand this comment. How do you suggest to ensure absolute air superiority before a landing in the RTV? Your opponent can hide his air units away completely so no air attacks can be forced by the attacker before the landing. Even if they are in reach of the landing hexes, the attacker needs a visible target before the landing to force air combat. That is only available in a few instances were visibility allows it and even then only if the defender happens to have units close to the landing beaches (remember there is no city, otherwise you wouldn't need the mulberry in the first place)"

If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.




Michael the Pole -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/21/2009 3:32:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.



Absolutely James -- ten or twelve allied air units plastering every axis unit within sight of the landing beaches would decimate an already moribund Luftwaffe. Air superiority isnt achieved in a month, it was gradually developed in the 18 months from 1943 to June 1944. An air campaign against France (and as a side benefit) what remains of the Luftwaffe in France like the Allies carried out in the first half of 1944 would make an attack on one of the two mulberries a hopeless luxury to a Germany dieing in the fires of Berlin, Hamburg and Dresden while Army Group Center is being eaten alive in the East.
+w



James Ward -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/21/2009 5:18:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.



Absolutely James -- ten or twelve allied air units plastering every axis unit within sight of the landing beaches would decimate an already moribund Luftwaffe. Air superiority isnt achieved in a month, it was gradually developed in the 18 months from 1943 to June 1944. An air campaign against France (and as a side benefit) what remains of the Luftwaffe in France like the Allies carried out in the first half of 1944 would make an attack on one of the two mulberries a hopeless luxury to a Germany dieing in the fires of Berlin, Hamburg and Dresden while Army Group Center is being eaten alive in the East.
+w


I think you can get 2-3 turns without air attacks on a Mulberry but it takes some work.
Before you deploy it you do the air runs and see if there are enemy air units about. Strat bomb a city near your landing site. If it's intercepted then you need to figure out how many enemy air units are around and try to hurt them.
If you aren't inercepted then you can air land and spot a little further. You may need to ground attack after you air land to see if there are other air units in range. If there aren't any in range then it that turn and next turn before any can be transferred at best. If enemy air units are more than 40 hexes away then you have 3 turns to either get a port or protect your Mulberry.



Chocolino -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/21/2009 10:44:17 PM)


quote:

If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.


James and Mike, no bad feelings but I disagree. There are three points I would like to make so that it maybe becomes a bit clearer:

1) The underlying problem in the game system is that even overwhelming air superiority alone is not enough to protect a Mulberry, you need absolute air superiority in RTV since a single successful air attack even of a potentially understrength air unit is enough to destroy it. As the attacker you have to ensure that there is not a single air unit left that can be used after the landing. That is what you cannot ensure in my opinion as explained in point 2).

2) Your suggested method of achieving absolute air superiority works only if you play the AI or the defender is a willing accomplice. He may not be. In RTV you can obviously avoid air combat as the defender, and you CANNOT force it as the attacker before a planned landing. That is the main point. As a defender you just have to keep either

-at least one single air unit in reserve and out of range (i.e. 20 hexes or more) from any active region or

- even better buy a new one when you need it for this purpose from your strategic PP reserve.

In the meanwhile let your opponent bomb or strat. bombing the heck out of any hexes for as many turns as he likes before the landing, it will be completely in vain for the purpose of achieving absolute air superiority.

3) I am only concerned with playability. RtV and history have only a remote resemblance at best as we all know. So I am not too concerned if RtV represents history correctly. But even when using historic arguments I believe that supply depots where not overstretched balloons popping after the first needle was injected.

In my eyes the fact remains that Mulberries can be taken out at will by the defender. They need better protection from instant aerial annihilation (not ground attack) to remain useful. There is probably a reason why we don't see them so often used in player to player games I assume.



James Ward -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/22/2009 12:26:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chocolino


quote:

If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.


James and Mike, no bad feelings but I disagree. There are three points I would like to make so that it maybe becomes a bit clearer:

1) The underlying problem in the game system is that even overwhelming air superiority alone is not enough to protect a Mulberry, you need absolute air superiority in RTV since a single successful air attack even of a potentially understrength air unit is enough to destroy it. As the attacker you have to ensure that there is not a single air unit left that can be used after the landing. That is what you cannot ensure in my opinion as explained in point 2).

2) Your suggested method of achieving absolute air superiority works only if you play the AI or the defender is a willing accomplice. He may not be. In RTV you can obviously avoid air combat as the defender, and you CANNOT force it as the attacker before a planned landing. That is the main point. As a defender you just have to keep either

-at least one single air unit in reserve and out of range (i.e. 20 hexes or more) from any active region or

- even better buy a new one when you need it for this purpose from your strategic PP reserve.

In the meanwhile let your opponent bomb or strat. bombing the heck out of any hexes for as many turns as he likes before the landing, it will be completely in vain for the purpose of achieving absolute air superiority.

3) I am only concerned with playability. RtV and history have only a remote resemblance at best as we all know. So I am not too concerned if RtV represents history correctly. But even when using historic arguments I believe that supply depots where not overstretched balloons popping after the first needle was injected.

In my eyes the fact remains that Mulberries can be taken out at will by the defender. They need better protection from instant aerial annihilation (not ground attack) to remain useful. There is probably a reason why we don't see them so often used in player to player games I assume.



The point of the Mulberry is not to be permanent port and supply source. It's to allow you to get ashore with enough force to take a port. It is definately possibe to get every air unit within range to intercept, you just need to choose the spot properly. You can't attack the turn you deploy or transfer so the ir units must be in range when you deploy the Mulberry. You should have two turns to capture a port. If you can't then the invasions fails.
Now perhaps you can say the defense strength should be raised but they shouldn't be indestructible.



Chocolino -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/22/2009 2:56:16 AM)

quote:

Now perhaps you can say the defense strength should be raised but they shouldn't be indestructible.


James, that seems to be a very good solution and I fully agree.



Michael the Pole -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/22/2009 3:28:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chocolino

quote:

Now perhaps you can say the defense strength should be raised but they shouldn't be indestructible.


James, that seems to be a very good solution and I fully agree.


I agree, also.
I also like Gary's original soloution of treating mulberries
quote:

as cities are, which are strat-bombed. Otherwise they should be invulnerable to air attack.


My recollection of the construction of mulberries is that they would be difficult to damage (a force 10 gale managed to do it, temporarily), but the activity of a mulberry would probably be easy enough to distrupt (large numbers of thin skinned trucks sitting around.) Perhaps the most accurate soloution is to allow the supply points available from a mulberry to be susceptable to reduction from a successfull air attack.



James Ward -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/22/2009 6:04:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

Perhaps the most accurate soloution is to allow the supply points available from a mulberry to be susceptable to reduction from a successfull air attack.



That is a very good idea.



BlueMak -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/23/2009 1:29:09 AM)

Please don't make it so they are basicaly indestructible to air assaults. Just because you can't protect your assets, don't harm the game for the rest of us.



wworld7 -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/23/2009 1:44:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

My recollection of the construction of mulberries is that they would be difficult to damage (a force 10 gale managed to do it, temporarily), but the activity of a mulberry would probably be easy enough to distrupt (large numbers of thin skinned trucks sitting around.)


My recolection is that the American one was destroyed by a storm and the British one survived.



Michael the Pole -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/23/2009 3:29:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueMak

Please don't make it so they are basicaly indestructible to air assaults. Just because you can't protect your assets, don't harm the game for the rest of us.



You know, Max, I really think that with your attitude, you might be happier playing Stratego.

The mulberries were esentially floating concrete boxes supporting roadways and piers, that were then anchored to the sea bottom and filled with water. Parts of them are visible off Gold beach to this day, only 65 years later. It is well recognised that the American mulberry failed because it wasn't anchored properly to the bottom. I suspect that you could throw 250 kg bombs at them all day long and only scratch the paint.

[image]local://upfiles/14500/691079CC52BE4AEE9A240BEF0C80A665.jpg[/image]



cpdeyoung -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/23/2009 4:08:45 AM)

Interesting that no one has commented that never in their wildest dreams did the allies ever think of towing these monsters anywhere but across the narrow seas, or other reasonably short distances. The idea of there being three of them landed in Denmark, as in Chocolino's game would be an awesome feat in peacetime. Gary has also pointed out that they can be placed inside a Med controlled by the other side. They were added when players complained about not being able to capture a port in an invasion.

In defense of BlueMak's point of view I too enjoy trying something outside the path of the real war. One could always make a house rule forbidding deviation from the actual path of the war. This game is not science fiction, and when I play it I feel I suffer the constraints of the actual parties.

I think bringing Spain in and taking Gibraltar is a good move. There are times I think taking Turkey works. However, these are current patterns of play, and I remember when nobody was doing these things. The pendulum may swing back again. I think the balance between simulation and game is about right in this "gem" we enjoy.

Chuck



BlueMak -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/23/2009 4:34:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueMak

Please don't make it so they are basicaly indestructible to air assaults. Just because you can't protect your assets, don't harm the game for the rest of us.



You know, Max, I really think that with your attitude, you might be happier playing Stratego.

The mulberries were esentially floating concrete boxes supporting roadways and piers, that were then anchored to the sea bottom and filled with water. Parts of them are visible off Gold beach to this day, only 65 years later. It is well recognised that the American mulberry failed because it wasn't anchored properly to the bottom. I suspect that you could throw 250 kg bombs at them all day long and only scratch the paint.

[image]local://upfiles/14500/691079CC52BE4AEE9A240BEF0C80A665.jpg[/image]



Interesting point you make there Annabel. So please tell me, were these mulberries built on site? Did they suddently appear out of nowhere? If they were actualy sent there with tug boats or whatever, was it done while the Germans had air superiority? Was it done while it would not be that difficult for the germans to attack them on route? If they were indeed attacked if the germans had enough air assets, do you think they would just stand there and take the punishment till the second coming of Jesus? Or would they be damaged but never ever destroyed because, come on, they are made of concrete and as we all know you can't possibly destroy concrete, ever.
So, as you can see Jack, the realism you are asking for can be seen in both ways.
But perhaps with your attitude you should go and play risk, just right up your alley I suspect.



Michael the Pole -> RE: Mulberries vulnerable to air attack (4/23/2009 5:22:03 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueMak

Please don't make it so they are basicaly indestructible to air assaults. Just because you can't protect your assets, don't harm the game for the rest of us.


quote:


You know, Max, I really think that with your attitude, you might be happier playing Stratego.


Interesting point you make there Annabel. So please tell me, were these mulberries built on site? Did they suddently appear out of nowhere? If they were actualy sent there with tug boats or whatever, was it done while the Germans had air superiority? Was it done while it would not be that difficult for the germans to attack them on route? If they were indeed attacked if the germans had enough air assets, do you think they would just stand there and take the punishment till the second coming of Jesus? Or would they be damaged but never ever destroyed because, come on, they are made of concrete and as we all know you can't possibly destroy concrete, ever.
So, as you can see Jack, the realism you are asking for can be seen in both ways.
But perhaps with your attitude you should go and play risk, just right up your alley I suspect.



As far as attitudes go, I'd like to point out that you are the one who started throwing personalities around in your reply to James. And at the risk of suffering your unbelievably well informed, terribly crushing repartee, perhaps I could suggest that you do a little bit of research to support your remarkably well informed opinions, beyond what you've learned from watching World at War during the commercial breaks on Sponge Bob. If nothing else, you could perhaps read Cyrano deBergerac, where you might perhaps learn something of the art of the insult beyond "You have a big nose." This forum has always been a model of courteous, literate and well thought out exchanges between gentlemen (and regretably few ladies), all qualities that you seem rather short of.

As Chuck points out, the mulberry rule was created in response to requests from members of this forum who were having trouble making the Normandy Invasion work. As has always been true of gamers since the begining of the hobby, they will take a loophole in the rules and run a convoy of super tankers through it. The idea of giving us the mulberries was to see what could be done with them instead of placing major restrictions on what we couldn't do with them.

Since the thread was opened a number of excellent ideas have been presented (all I might add, without personal attacks) as to ways we can deal with problems that were created when the developers tried to deal with the initial problem of capturing a supply source. I have no particular interest in any of the proposed solutions, but it would be nice to reach a consensus that the designers can adopt for the next version of the game, as we have done on this board, many times before.

I for one, intend to take a deep breath, get some sleep, and return when next I can in hopes of a glorious, and hopefully, more courteous, resurrection.



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