Merchant battleships? (Full Version)

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cambronne -> Merchant battleships? (4/21/2009 6:02:32 PM)

My french fleet is in port and the only ship in the adjacent water region is a single british merchant.
My fleet exits port and there is a battle.
All is fine as I have 30 ships v. 1.

The battle that then takes place is between my one frigate and the merchant and when the merchant wins that battle, my entire fleet flees back into port. This happened 3 straight times. (I'm a slow learner.)

It appears that I would be better off without a frigate so that I could avoid that merchant battleship that my fleet is obviously afraid of.

Is this a result that was intended?



morganbj -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/21/2009 8:04:57 PM)

Seems odd to me, but I never use quick combat against the Brits.  Detailed combat would have given you more control and you probably would have won hands down.



ShaiHulud -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/21/2009 8:32:13 PM)

Aye, this often happens. The Brit's higher morale seems to give it a great advantage, even over a fighting frigate. A minor annoyance,...heh



dude -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/21/2009 9:38:52 PM)

Yes, that's one of the bad effects I reported about having too few frigates in a battle and having to fight merchants or privateers.  If you lose your whole fleet is retreated ...  I'm hoping this is fixed in a patch.

So in the meantime either put plenty of frigates in a fleet or none.



cambronne -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/21/2009 11:22:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaiHulud

Aye, this often happens. The Brit's higher morale seems to give it a great advantage, even over a fighting frigate. A minor annoyance,...heh



Well it does get a bit frustrating that a merchant can so effectively bottle up my fleet.



Randomizer -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/22/2009 12:30:47 AM)

Instant combat is too much of a crap-shoot and I seldom if ever use it for naval actions, particularly against the RN.

While someone might be seeking a fix, I'm not entirely sure this is broken. Putting a fleet to sea in the Age of Sail was a pretty complex evolution that could be spread out over several days and one that was fraught with potential for danger. Also weather conditions had to be just so; a delay could easily close the window of opportunity created by favourable winds. A commander of a continental fleet might be ordered to sea and upon encountering any resistance it is entirely reasonable to abort the operation and return to port. Frigates were the 'eyes of the fleet' so the loss of one on scouting duties leaves the admiral blind and with the institutional memories of actions such as Quiberon Bay and Chesapeake Bay not proceeding to sea at all in this situation makes some sense.

A well handled frigate should be able to defeat the vast majority of merchants in detailed combat and this problem goes away. Likewise, not using a frigate to scout, an acceptable option in home waters, will solve this as well.

I think this is a case where the game is behaving in a manner consistant with contemporary continental naval practice and doctrine and that no repair is really necessary.

Just $0.02. Best Regards.



Mus -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/22/2009 4:35:07 AM)

Need some kind of rule adjustment to prevent an entire fleet vacating a sea zone because its attached frigates lose a battle with merchants or privateers.  It just doesnt make sense and it happens fairly often.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

While someone might be seeking a fix, I'm not entirely sure this is broken.


Im not sure how you could say that. If no frigates are attached the fleet moves around as normal. If a frigate is attached its a total crapshoot as to who will win in quick/instant combat (and remember in PBEM which is basically all multiplayer in this game there is no option to use detailed battle) and it makes no sense as to why an entire fleet would vacate a sea zone because of a tiny battle between two ships.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Likewise, not using a frigate to scout, an acceptable option in home waters, will solve this as well.


Frigates are used to reduce/increase pursuit casualties in defeat/victory so their use isnt entirely optional. Since there is no option to tell your frigates not to engage enemy merchants/privateers and stay close for fleet actions Im not sure what you are saying here.




Randomizer -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/22/2009 8:28:02 PM)

@Mus

I was entirely wrong focusing solely on the AI behavour as is relates to one-player games and ignoring the large PBEM community. You are correct as this applies to multiplayer and if there is a workable fix than I hope it comes with the patch.

However, I still do not see the problem vs. the AI though. Detached frigates had many duties, commerce protection and communications amongst them but the biggest was intelligence gathering and scouting. I just used the term 'scout' in relation to detached frigates only, those remaining with the fleet had much more limited scope for strategic scouting. A detached frigate that was defeated (and so unable to continue its scouting even if not captured) would create an information vacuum that may cause a prudent Admiral to shy away from the unknown. If this is the case than withdrawl ceases to be entirely ahistorical particularly in an era of prudent admirals (with a number of significant exceptions of course). When fighting the AI, the key is to always select detailed combat where a merchant or privateer is very unlikely to defeat a well handled frigate.

The pursuit phase of the naval combat system is I think its weakest feature and a holdover (I believe) of imposing a ground-based combat system into a naval environment. It represents the only aspect of CoG-EE that I actually dislike.

Best Regards



Mus -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/23/2009 12:57:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

However, I still do not see the problem vs. the AI though. Detached frigates had many duties, commerce protection and communications amongst them but the biggest was intelligence gathering and scouting. I just used the term 'scout' in relation to detached frigates only, those remaining with the fleet had much more limited scope for strategic scouting. A detached frigate that was defeated (and so unable to continue its scouting even if not captured) would create an information vacuum that may cause a prudent Admiral to shy away from the unknown. If this is the case than withdrawl ceases to be entirely ahistorical particularly in an era of prudent admirals (with a number of significant exceptions of course).


I doubt a merchant or privateer "pushing around" an entire fleet was envisioned. I think this is just the way it ended up working, not necessarily intended. Talking about detached frigate duty and abstracted actions of an abstracted admiral is tortured logic to justify something that isnt working quite right IMO. The way the game stands a fleet with ZERO frigates is "safer" from lone merchants/privateers (in fact doesnt interact with them at all, which doesnt make much sense as the fleet itself does blockade) than one with a couple. Thats exactly backwards from what it should be. The idea of a frigate losing to a privateer or merchant isnt completely impossible, but most of these battles are inconclusive, therefore there would not be this information vacuum you are talking about, and ships of the line would be on hand to chase away any pesky merchants and privateers who were somehow able to drive away a scouting frigate.



ptan54 -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/23/2009 3:12:56 AM)

There's only a vacuum if the frigate sinks. Otherwise, you'll have:

Frigate: "help help I got beaten by some merchants"

300 ships of the line "yikes I better scuttle my ships and pee in my pants"

Even if the frigate sinks the player should be given the option to be aggressive if he chooses to do so. Having a little merchant stop a massive fleet is simply ludicrous.



madgamer2 -> RE: Merchant battleships? (4/23/2009 4:31:31 AM)

I found this to be true of CoG and especially FoF where the Yanks could have a 2 or 3 to 1 advantage and loose to them pesky Rebs. So the game turns into move, battle move battle etc and ..forever.
there are a few things about this system that no matter how good the game is it just does not work for me.

Madgamer



arras -> RE: Merchant battleships? (5/5/2009 6:44:31 PM)

In CoG I had two ships (that is ships of the line) moving across zone occupied by single privateer. Battle occurred and to my surprise I have lost! Well, I sad to myself ...totally improbable but can happen. Than I tried for another 2 times with the same result, loosing one ship along the way! Then I brought one frigate and put and end to it by finally forcing privateer to retreat.

Well ...there is something wrong with game mechanics in this aspect of game, that is sure.



ShaiHulud -> RE: Merchant battleships? (5/5/2009 9:47:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: arras

In CoG I had two ships (that is ships of the line) moving across zone occupied by single privateer. Battle occurred and to my surprise I have lost! Well, I sad to myself ...totally improbable but can happen. Than I tried for another 2 times with the same result, loosing one ship along the way! Then I brought one frigate and put and end to it by finally forcing privateer to retreat.

Well ...there is something wrong with game mechanics in this aspect of game, that is sure.



Well, that is curious. SoL's can't engage privateers, so, your experience seems beyond normal. Unless, that is, your two 'SoL's' were actually merchants? Presently, I have 6 Prussian privateers off of Turkey who consistently own the 2-3 frigates that the various Brit, Spanish, and Turkish fleets have used against them. No SoL's are evident, despite the fact that at least 3 different fleets engage the privateers.

Anyway, who had the wind gauge? That's a supreme advantage in quick combat. What were the relative morale values? Again, advantage goes to the higher morale.

My own experience is that, overall, quick combat renders results that I would expect. The Frogs and Spaniards, Turks and Russians, could not stand up to even equal British forces. What is less realistic (unless Nelson is commanding-heh) is the results of detailed naval combat.



arras -> RE: Merchant battleships? (5/6/2009 2:18:56 PM)

No these were not merchants. Combat ships. Two Russian ships of the line (called simply ships in CoG) against single French privateer. 3 engagements with wind gauge once on one side next on the other. I cant really recall exact conditions.



ericbabe -> RE: Merchant battleships? (5/7/2009 5:58:29 PM)

This behavior should be fixed in the upcoming patch.  This is an unintended consequence of a tweak to the naval engagement rules we made a couple months before release.






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