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Tonqeen -> Counters (5/5/2009 11:06:29 PM)

Is the counters ready for every country and if so, could you post a link that show the different countries counters?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Counters (5/6/2009 1:12:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tonqeen

Is the counters ready for every country and if so, could you post a link that show the different countries counters?

The units have been finished for several years. But posting a full list of them as rendered in MWIF is not really feasible - there are over 3000 of them. The tutorials give a fairly complete list of a representative units for each unit type (76 types, plus some variations within type) and country (~80 that have units). Patrice's web site has the counter sheets from the board game of WIF, and those have been duplicated in MWIF (virtually unchanged).

Each unit has data that is not visible on the counter 'face'. In the board game it was placed on the back of the counter. In MWIF there is a Unit Data Panel that displays all the data associated with the counter (much more detail).

Here is a screen shot of the Pools form, which is the form that displays the most units at one time; and in this instance it shows the force pool for Germany.

Though there are 52 units displayed at once, we still haven't seen all the German fighters. Especially conspicuous by their absence are all the units that have been scrapped and those that are on the map already.

EDIT: Added screen shot. Internet Explorer was confused when I tried to originally upload the screen shot, so I had to exit the program and log back in.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/F8E431B72B8A4A8E9AFCE30FEF7FA283.jpg[/image]



Greywolf -> RE: Counters (5/6/2009 10:56:57 AM)

Is it just me or dont the color look blurred near the text and numbers ? Make my eyes feel a bit sore after some time fixing it..

Same for the text on the button by the way. Perhaps it is related to the computer resolution you take picture from... 



csharpmao -> RE: Counters (5/6/2009 11:03:27 AM)

I think the blur effect is due to jpg compression, when saving the screen shot.



Froonp -> RE: Counters (5/6/2009 1:01:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csharpmao

I think the blur effect is due to jpg compression, when saving the screen shot.

It is.



Tonqeen -> RE: Counters (5/6/2009 6:10:31 PM)

Thanks for answers.

quote:

Patrice's web site has the counter sheets from the board game of WIF


Can you link that please?



Froonp -> RE: Counters (5/6/2009 6:12:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tonqeen

Thanks for answers.

quote:

Patrice's web site has the counter sheets from the board game of WIF


Can you link that please?

Here : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/counters/index.htm
But it is only low res scans.



ItBurns -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 4:18:20 PM)

I don't know if this helps but the kind Froonp also has available a spread sheet that lists all the units and their different strengths. It can be found on his site at http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm. You will have to search for it - its right under the heading counter lists.

This I found to be much easier on the eyes and since its a spread sheet I was able to sort it any way I wanted for comparisons.



composer99 -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 4:27:46 PM)

That countersheet spreadsheet is the best non-ADG WiF accessory there is.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 6:47:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

That countersheet spreadsheet is the best non-ADG WiF accessory there is.

Since Patrice did the proof reading of the units in MWIF, I would be willing to bet it is a 100% match to the units in MWIF.



Froonp -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 6:54:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

That countersheet spreadsheet is the best non-ADG WiF accessory there is.

Since Patrice did the proof reading of the units in MWIF, I would be willing to bet it is a 100% match to the units in MWIF.

Except for 3 Japanese MECH whose names were changed from their original WiF FE name against my will.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/EB87242C0A9C47209F6040830993558B.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 6:56:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ItBurns

I don't know if this helps but the kind Froonp also has available a spread sheet that lists all the units and their different strengths. It can be found on his site at http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm. You will have to search for it - its right under the heading counter lists.

This I found to be much easier on the eyes and since its a spread sheet I was able to sort it any way I wanted for comparisons.

Don't hesitate to download it again if you have since a long time, because people keep on signaling me tiny errors in the files a couple of times per year. I included a date & hour in the file for those who wonder if they are up to date.

Direct link : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/PionsWiF-AiF-PatiF.zip



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 7:05:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

That countersheet spreadsheet is the best non-ADG WiF accessory there is.

Since Patrice did the proof reading of the units in MWIF, I would be willing to bet it is a 100% match to the units in MWIF.

Except for 3 Japanese MECH whose names were changed from their original WiF FE name against my will.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/EB87242C0A9C47209F6040830993558B.jpg[/image]

Ah yes. The mechanized units whose names included the word 'Armor'. I thought this would be confusing to players since the behavior of these units in combat would be as mechanized units, without the increased benefits that armor units receive.



Froonp -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 7:13:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ah yes. The mechanized units whose names included the word 'Armor'. I thought this would be confusing to players since the behavior of these units in combat would be as mechanized units, without the increased benefits that armor units receive.

Yes, but who are we to rename what the Japanese designated as armored units, to mechanized units, even if from a practical point of view, they are more matching mechanised units because Japanese tanks are best rated as tankettes and recon vehicules compared to the rest of the world definition or armor.

I would not. If it pleases Japan to call them "Star Destroyers of Death", this is their choice, and I'd keep that.

Units names are units names, units types are units types. Matching both is pointless and redundant from my point of view.

[;)]



Mike Parker -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 7:16:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ah yes. The mechanized units whose names included the word 'Armor'. I thought this would be confusing to players since the behavior of these units in combat would be as mechanized units, without the increased benefits that armor units receive.

Awww c'mon! Its Japan, their mech are fighting Chinese, which means they are armour for the most part :)



micheljq -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 7:25:12 PM)

Japan had light and medium armour too, aren't you underestimating them? Of course compared to soviet tanks they were not as fiersome. But I am sure they were doing the job against the chinese army, no need to build a 60 tons tank if the enemy have no armor, most of the theater of operation is jungle and islands.

Mmmm from wiki seems that the japanese armor were desperately outclassed in both quality and quantity against the americans. [:)]



LiquidSky -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 9:44:08 PM)

The japanese fielded a grand total of 4 Tank divisions in the war  (not Armour corps)!  Since they never had a tank or mech corp at all, and the counters are just pure fantasy, I guess we can call them whatever we like.  Another fine example of WiF Fantasy, where they beef up the axis powers to make them be able to compete against the allies for a fun game.



Orm -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 10:41:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

The japanese fielded a grand total of 4 Tank divisions in the war  (not Armour corps)!  Since they never had a tank or mech corp at all, and the counters are just pure fantasy, I guess we can call them whatever we like.  Another fine example of WiF Fantasy, where they beef up the axis powers to make them be able to compete against the allies for a fun game.


Yea. The Allies got no beefing and no fantasy units in WiF. Hmmm.... the armored French corps leaps to mind.

4 Tank divisions with 4 motorized divisions and supporting elements would be 4 armored/mechanized corps if they were organized that way. In most oob there were no more than one tank division in an armored corps.

I am sorry for the snide answer. [:(]

Edit: I have no trouble with the French armored corps in WiF.



Mike Parker -> RE: Counters (5/7/2009 10:57:14 PM)

Also on this point it is fair to say, the counter mix is NOT limited to historical limits, 4 Tank and 4 Motorized divisions could easily form an Armoured corp and two mechanized corp for the Japanese OOB.  However WiF allows the players to build more or less than this historical amount.  There are reasoned estimates of how many more they could have produced, and I suppose scenario start amounts mean you must have at least some.

Most of the folks that play WiF I would think agree that for the most part the game does a good job balancing Historical force levels with a 'what could be', and in addition the game balance as a whole tends I think to have the players gravitate to a very reasonable OOB.  So if Japan can build 2 armoured corps 3 mech corps and a div here and there, they usually pay for that with less than historical levels of Naval and Aircraft.  To say the unit mix is pure fantasy is disingenuous to say it politely.  If you disagree, that is fine.  If you disagree and want to support your position, that is fine and I am sure folks will joust with you.  However to just come and say its fantasy without any backing is... mmmm well I am polite usually so I won't comment further.




composer99 -> RE: Counters (5/8/2009 4:48:09 PM)

Mike, they also boost up the Axis production capabilities, which means that the Japanese can, assuming their convoys have not been sunk, build out their armour and naval/air assets. Most Japanese players don't build armour in the early part of the game, though (usually they start in 1942 when shipbuilding is winding down).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Counters (5/8/2009 5:49:16 PM)

I think I will just throw in here that, ...

... while I have refused to include most "WIF design kit" elements as part of MWIF product 1, ...

... the data files are CSV (comma separated values) files that can be editted using Excel or Notepad, so ...

... you can change which hexes have what resources, including factories, to affect the game's play-balance.

One caveat on this is: if you manually go in and modify the game data files, when you restore a saved game, all the current data files must match what were in use when the save was made. For instance, if you modify the data files, all the saved games that come with the released product will fail to work (crash and burn immediately).



Mad Russian -> RE: Counters (5/9/2009 3:44:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Japan had light and medium armour too, aren't you underestimating them? Of course compared to soviet tanks they were not as fiersome. But I am sure they were doing the job against the chinese army, no need to build a 60 tons tank if the enemy have no armor, most of the theater of operation is jungle and islands.


China is the only country their armor was equal to or better than. Even Italian tanks were better than Japanese tanks.

quote:


Mmmm from wiki seems that the japanese armor were desperately outclassed in both quality and quantity against the americans. [:)]


The early/mid-war Japanese tanks had riveted armour plate and small guns. The American tanks were miles ahead in all categories. Even the American light tanks were better than what the Japanese were fielding. Later in the war that changed somewhat.

The most successful Japanese tank was the Medium Tank Tank Type 97 with a 57mm low velocity gun and up to 25mm of riveted armour plate. This was later upgraded to a tank with a high velocity 47mm gun and up to 50mm of riveted armour plate. Not what I would want to go to war with against the tanks the Allies put in the field.

The Japanese later in the war tried to produce assault guns along the line of the German StuG's with guns large enough to kill a Sherman. Their main defense against Allied tanks was a long pole with an AT mine attached at the end. Great results against the Allied tanks, not so great for the man employing it.

Good Hunting.

MR





Mad Russian -> RE: Counters (5/9/2009 4:09:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

The japanese fielded a grand total of 4 Tank divisions in the war  (not Armour corps)!  Since they never had a tank or mech corp at all, and the counters are just pure fantasy, I guess we can call them whatever we like.  Another fine example of WiF Fantasy, where they beef up the axis powers to make them be able to compete against the allies for a fun game.


So then, you want the Japanese to have no armored units in the game? WiF is not about what was built so much as what could have been built. Would you please refresh my old and failing memory of the German marines and their long and proud history of amphibious assaults during the war....or how many US Corps were used during the invasions of the pacific islands. How many US Marine Corps units that invaded were Corps sized units again?

A bigger question is COULD they have been built? Because if WiF is only about what was done then we don't need to do builds at all. Just have them show up on time. If WiF is about what could have been done then we have what you term as fantasy units.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
Yea. The Allies got no beefing and no fantasy units in WiF. Hmmm.... the armored French corps leaps to mind.


The French Armored Corps were very strong and had the Germans very concerned. The main reason they were ineffective was the Germans caught them refueling and destroyed many of their tanks while they were out of fuel. There are some very powerful Soviet armored units early in the game as well.

quote:


4 Tank divisions with 4 motorized divisions and supporting elements would be 4 armored/mechanized corps if they were organized that way. In most oob there were no more than one tank division in an armored corps.


The Japanese never came close to putting anything like an armored or mechanized corps in the field. The only possible place that would have benefited them would have been China. The Chinese had no armored forces so the Japanese really didn't have a need to do that. However, I think WiF shows the value of such an organizational change if Japan had done that. The Chinese don't deal with Japanese armor well at all. The cost in the game to make that armored organizational change(buying the Japanese Armor/Mech) is expensive so you don't get it without a high cost. Which the Japanese wouldn't have either. You will only buy the Armor/Mech units if you intend on taking China out. Japan didn't opt for that strategy. If they had they would have more than likely have formed their armor into harder hitting units.

Instead they chose to do battle on the high seas. If you, as the Japanese player, chose that strategy you will find buying the Armor/Mech units very expensive as well and more than likely not worth the price.

WiF comes with about double the actual allotment of specialty units. In some places the OOB was abstracted. How else do you do that with a Grand Strategy game that is based on Corps level units?

It doesn't take much research into the chain of events, during the war, to see that for the Axis to get anywhere near 1945, all the stars in the universe have to line up in a row. There are even times, early on, where they can even push the stars past being lined up in a row and win. The fact is, for the Axis to win, they have to be both lucky and good. The Allies can just be average to win. If the Allies are both lucky and good they win early. That's what makes most games of WiF end early for our group. One side or the other takes a commanding strategic position that the other side has no chance at either breaking or stalemating. When that happens we start again.

Good Hunting.

MR



Froonp -> RE: Counters (5/9/2009 10:23:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The fact is, for the Axis to win, they have to be both lucky and good. The Allies can just be average to win. If the Allies are both lucky and good they win early. That's what makes most games of WiF end early for our group. One side or the other takes a commanding strategic position that the other side has no chance at either breaking or stalemating. When that happens we start again.

Remember that you speak from an old version experience of WiF.
It's not so true in WiF FE, with the Axis side winning quite often.
But it also depends on what "Winning" means.



bredsjomagnus -> RE: Counters (5/9/2009 11:20:06 AM)

quote:

It's not so true in WiF FE, with the Axis side winning quite often.
But it also depends on what "Winning" means.


Just curiouse.
Doesn´t the Allies win most of the time in the yearly WiF-meatings in US and Europe? In the 2008 annual it said that there was only one axis victory IIRC, last game event. Was that a coincidence or a repeated pattern?




LiquidSky -> RE: Counters (5/9/2009 10:16:47 PM)

WiF is a fantasy game...it is filled with fantasy units, mostly for the axis.  I have no problem with that, its what makes this game so much fun to play, and gives the axis the extra oomph it needs to try and achieve a victory.  My argument was not to not allow the extra mech units, but as to what they should be called.  They are called 3rd Armour (Mech) 4th Armour (mech) and so on.  Shannon changed their name and somebody argued against it saying they should keep their (gag) 'historical' name.  Well...since the units themselves are a clear fantasy, that didnt even show up on a planning board much less in an actual army, they have no 'historical' name but are instead named by Harry Rowland in a fit of irony.  It really doesnt matter to me if the Japanese could have scrapped their fleet and built a thousand armour divisions, mech units should be called mech and armour should be called armour so that newbies dont get confused.  The japanese didnt call them anything because they didnt exist.  There idea of mechanizing an army would have been to use kabuki cabs to carry their troops [image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/micons/m16.gif[/image]  But anything to give the Japanese a chance to win makes for a more fun game.




LiquidSky -> RE: Counters (5/9/2009 10:28:59 PM)

In my long experience with the game, I have never seen the Axis side win.  However, if you play by the rules, instead of somebodys twisted version of it, you would have bid for powers, and sides dont win, only individual powers.  Quite often you will see people make stupid bids to play powers that no longer have a chance of winning (such as Germany) that skew the results.  Or, you may decide you dont like bidding and go by the historical levels.  Even so, if you add up the allied side, vrs the Axis side, you will see way more games in the allied favour, because they can drive out and get them. 

China needs 2.
CW needs 19.
France needs 1.
Germany needs 10.
Italy needs 0.
Japan needs 5.
USA needs 17
USSR/CC needs 13

Or you can go for Automatic Victory:  Control Berlin, Canberra, Chungking, Delhi, London, Moscow, Paris, Pretoria, Rome, Taihoku, & Tokyo. and your side wins automatically.  The other side gets zero.  You get your objectives and the enemy/neutral objectives closest to your capital.
 
The options you use will skew the game as well.  Some options favour others.  If you use bidding, then play balance is automatic.  But if you dont, you are making it easier/harder for different sides/countries to win.  I would say that in the dozen or so games I have played to 1945, the CW is usually the winner, with the Italians, or Russians in second.  Germany rarely does well, and usually has less then 10 objectives left.  Japan can do okay, but suffers easily from auto victory as they only control the fate of Taihoku and Tokyo (and perhaps Chungking). 
 
If you use bidding, then their is a lot less cooperation amongst the allies, and maybe even infighting to the axis credit.  If you dont use any victory at all, Germany/Italy/Japan are hard to conquer.  If you use historical levels, then the allies are one big happy family and can usually dole out victory so that everyone on their side wins equally.



Mad Russian -> RE: Counters (5/9/2009 11:01:50 PM)

We are about 50-50 with side wins.

quote:


However, if you play by the rules, instead of somebodys twisted version of it, you would have bid for powers, and sides dont win, only individual powers.


We've never bid for sides. We put names in a hat and draw out the country each gamer is to play. So we must be some of those you consider to have a twisted version of the way we play.

To each his own.

Good Hunting.

MR





brian brian -> RE: Counters (5/10/2009 3:27:19 AM)

the Allies have held an edge at US Wif-Con for some time, winning on more than 50% of the tables each year. I think the organizer of Euro WiF-Con mentioned the same thing creeping into their results as well, although I have heard they tend to have more games of WiF Classic at their Con.

I think in current WiF:FE with the most common optionals and kits, the Allies hold a definite edge, given equal skill levels around the table. The great variable is US entry, which was recently 'flattened' to make entry extremes less likely. MWiF will put more spikes in the possible outcomes there. I think Allied losses tend to come from poor Allied play, with the most common mistake being poor strategic decision-making by the USSR, and the second most common one being the West not supporting the Russians sufficiently at crunch time. The Axis can lose in many other ways.


like Steve said, you can always 'rebalance' the game by adding or subtracting resources to each side. This is the balancing mechanism that has always been suggested by Harry Rowland.




I like that you are allowed to do whatever you want controlling a Major Power in WiF. So the Italians can build a dangerous horde of naval bombers, rather a bunch of infantry armies soon to dissolve at the combat front in North Africa and Russia.

The biggest 'fantasy' I see in WiF is China, by a long way. Even the Chinese can build motorized and up units. This is OK with me, but that should require more of an Allied investment. The reality was anything in China with a motor probably came from outside the country. The US invested hugely in trying to support the Chinese military. In WiF, China gets a decent enough military with the incredible logistic tail required in history being nearly invisible.

I will never support efforts to shoe-horn the game into 'historical'-ness. Players should be able to pick any strategy and any mix of forces they want. But they should face the realistic obstacles to their plans that would occur.



Mad Russian -> RE: Counters (5/10/2009 3:41:55 AM)

Chinese Tank Forces:

Chiang's army received $250 million worth of tanks, trucks, and aircraft from the Soviet Union in 1938, plus some British and French military supplies. Nevertheless, by the summer of 1939 Japan controlled most of northeastern China and all major coastal seaports, except for the British Crown Colony at Hong Kong. In short, China was isolated except for supplies moving from the west along the so-called Burma Road or through French Indochina.


****
A list of Chinese tanks is difficult to put together because every sort of import and seized weapon was used. Many local armor versions were set up from materials on hand. Warlords would take trucks and have metal plates bolted to the sides and a machine gun mounted on the top. At the beginning of the conflict with Japan, the Chinese had a variety of old AFV and 7000 trucks. China had 2 armored battalions that fought around Shanghai when war broke out with Japan in 1937. Almost half of China's armor was either captured or destroyed by 1938 as out of the 96 tanks they started with, only 48 remained. 


****
In the meantime, the fusion of both lines had given birth to the excellent M3 (the British Stuart, later nicknamed "Honey"). It joined the fighting even before the entry of the USA in the war, in North Africa with the British. It served as reconnaissance vehicle until the end of the war and was issued to almost all allied nations, China included.


****
A prime example of "make do" emerged when a shipment of Stuart M-3 light tanks arrived in India - but without Armored Force personnel to maintain and man them. Luckily, Stilwell's staff included a gung-ho former Armored Force officer, Colonel Rothwell Brown. The Colonel quickly came up with a brand new entity, the First Provisional Chinese-American Tank Group. To train and lead the outfit, he found a number of officers and GIs happy to leave engineering and transportation battalions. For tank crews, the Colonel drew upon the ranks of raw Chinese conscripts flown in to serve in the infantry. Almost none had driven a motor vehicle, much less entered a tank - and they had only three months to shape up for combat.

Yet Colonel Brown's mini-tank force soon managed to put such continuing pressure on the enemy in support of Chinese troops as to play a valued part in the Allied effort. Their light tanks proved so vulnerable that they suffered heavy losses. However, 12 Sherman medium tanks later arrived, to be manned by the American volunteers, and supplied just the extra muscle needed. When Stilwell's troops finally drove through to connect their new road at the Chinese border to the old Burma Road to Kunming, there were tanks of the First Provisional Chinese-American Tank Group to clear away the last enemy.


Good Hunting.

MR



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