Map error (Full Version)

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samarobriva -> Map error (5/12/2009 4:29:52 PM)

Hello on the map Les Forges, there 's a mistake on a building which is indicated as a Level 2. But in fact it's a 1 Level structure

[image]local://upfiles/20380/61F8A4F9B33D411F8C4F594C07B4E824.jpg[/image]



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (5/12/2009 10:21:42 PM)

From the shadows...that building should be coded as Level 2.
Nice find, samarobriva!



RD Oddball -> RE: Map error (5/13/2009 2:00:21 AM)

Got it.  Thanks!



ezjax -> RE: Map error (5/15/2009 3:37:25 AM)

Another Map Note // Small Maps don’t match up with the Big Maps for Uncle Red and Tare Green they seem to be backwards.



RD Oddball -> RE: Map error (5/15/2009 5:12:44 PM)

Yeah we caught that one after the release.  Thanks for pointing it out all the same.



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (5/24/2009 3:25:31 AM)

Found this playing the Isigny map.
Very minor coding glitches on the small map items (sandbags, equipments and stuff)...and a couple of noticeable coding errors.

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/CC_May090001-isignymaperror%7E0.jpg[/image]



Senior Drill -> RE: Map error (5/24/2009 4:26:50 AM)

A haulded out boat on it's side undergoing hull repair would hardly be class as a Wreck, at least in the boat owner's eyes.  Perhaps there need to be a new Element.txt file element for beached boats called "SS Minnow".



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (5/24/2009 6:44:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Senior Drill

A haulded out boat on it's side undergoing hull repair would hardly be class as a Wreck, at least in the boat owner's eyes.  Perhaps there need to be a new Element.txt file element for beached boats called "SS Minnow".


I know, Drill...but there's another upturned boat (a much smaller boat) on the other side of the same map coded as "wreck".
"SS Minnow" is way better than "wood fence" [;)]



samarobriva -> RE: Map error (5/24/2009 11:39:59 AM)

Here another one. In fact to me that can't be a a coded map !!!!
There's everything from shallow water to deep water
Barbed wire are trenches sometimes bushes and so on....

The map Saint Pierre du Mont

Tested with the Update Release-DR55001b

[image]local://upfiles/20380/B9E3F4FCCE6B4C8F941A8F74663CA706.jpg[/image]



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (5/24/2009 1:00:51 PM)

Hmm...looks like the patch messed up Saint Pierre du Mont...the new map code file is wrong!  My guess would be a mixup with the Pointe du Hoc codes (INPDH.txt)...Saint Pierre du Mont's is INPDHil.txt.
I remember vividly bloody battles of Rangers vs Osttruppen on this map before the patch...and the codes were fine before...no strange coding errors.

Temporary fix if you kept backup of unpatched CCTLD (I always do before installing beta patches [;)])...just replace the new Saint Pierre du Mont map code file (INPDHil.txt) with the old/unpatched file.



samarobriva -> RE: Map error (5/24/2009 4:12:36 PM)

yes you're right that's the one



RD Oddball -> RE: Map error (5/24/2009 4:33:31 PM)

I'll fix this in the final patch.  Thanks for pointing it out.



samarobriva -> RE: Map error (5/30/2009 7:01:44 PM)

Sainte mère église
It is a church not a cathedral.
The place on front of the church have trees.
There are trees around the place as well as houses in the upper place of the square.
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11265/normal_St._Mere_Eglise_%20june%201944.jpg[/image]
to see the actual size
The church is on the right side of the picture

Not really bugs I know !!



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (5/30/2009 11:26:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samarobriva

Sainte mère église
It is a church not a cathedral.
The place on front of the church have trees.
There are trees around the place as well as houses in the upper place of the square.
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11265/normal_St._Mere_Eglise_%20june%201944.jpg[/image]
to see the actual size
The church is on the right side of the picture

Not really bugs I know !!


Interesting...
Here's the original CC5 maps of St. Mere Eglise:
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/CC5_Stmare.jpg[/image]

And here's the CCTLD version:
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/CCTLD_Stmare.jpg[/image]





squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (5/30/2009 11:49:45 PM)

Sainte Mere Eglise, 6 June 1944 - Aerial Photo:

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/st-mereegliseaerial.jpg[/image]




Greup -> RE: Map error (5/31/2009 4:14:05 AM)

When we're on a bitching strreak: One thing that have always bothered me with most (if not all) historic CC* maps is the location of the sun which normally is totally off AFAIK. It seems as if the light falls from north on most maps (like is the standard on many topographical real-world maps). But CC maps aren't abstracted maps but attempts to portrait a top/aerial view of the actual terrian.

Just take a look at the above aerial 1944 photo and compare it to the CCTLD rendering: The world suddenly turned upside down and the sun is shining from north-west! I find this very annoying and a poor design decision. I can't see why we need to play on maps where it's about 10-11pm and full sunlight (or the world has rotated) .

Ah well...in some games you'll get 1980-ies air-conditioners in early 1940's Stalingrad, 1970'ies hayrolls in WWII Soviet, so I guess I shouldn't moan about the world rotating some 180 degrees... [:'(]



samarobriva -> RE: Map error (5/31/2009 8:33:44 AM)

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11265/normal_sainte%20m%C3%A8re%20%C3%A9glise-1%7E0.jpg[/image]
That's a better picture
and the actual size

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11265/normal_c.jpg[/image]
and the actual size
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11265/normal_25.jpeg[/image]actual picture

So it appears to be quite different than from the actual map. The very deadly clean zone doesn't exist around the church.
Note all the pictures issued by LIFE for Sainte Mère Eglise on the net have to flipped. have a look at the clock[:D]
Anyway the new map is much much much better than the one we had before. But the accuracy can be increased as so many pictures have been taken in that period.

@squadleader Where did you got that Spot picture ?
@Greup
quote:

the sun is shining from north-west
To me it's almost noon. But on CCTLD the sun is shining from the North



Southernland -> RE: Map error (5/31/2009 10:33:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greup

When we're on a bitching strreak: One thing that have always bothered me with most (if not all) historic CC* maps is the location of the sun which normally is totally off AFAIK. It seems as if the light falls from north on most maps (like is the standard on many topographical real-world maps). But CC maps aren't abstracted maps but attempts to portrait a top/aerial view of the actual terrian.

Just take a look at the above aerial 1944 photo and compare it to the CCTLD rendering: The world suddenly turned upside down and the sun is shining from north-west! I find this very annoying and a poor design decision. I can't see why we need to play on maps where it's about 10-11pm and full sunlight (or the world has rotated) .
[:'(]


Like this?



[image]local://upfiles/27122/4BFCE16C4B9E4761A0ABEF40CBFC30AB.jpg[/image]



Andrew Williams -> RE: Map error (5/31/2009 11:43:07 AM)

Hasn't the Brecourt video got the shadows flipped?



samarobriva -> RE: Map error (6/1/2009 9:48:29 AM)

Some walls are not on the right place.
It looks like a coding error on Sainte Mère Eglise
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11265/normal_Sans%20titre-1.jpg[/image]
click to enlarge



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (6/5/2009 3:19:18 AM)

Another one like Isigny...all buildings with "Wood Floor" graphics coded as "Stone Floor" in Ouistreham.
BTW, about the fix in the beta patch for Les Forges (top of this thread)...the building is now coded as Level 1 structure...but the building shadow needs to be fixed...looks like Level 2 building shadow to me [;)]

And what about Hedgerow elevation coding?
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2131267






squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (6/5/2009 3:22:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samarobriva


@squadleader Where did you got that Spot picture ?


Uncle Google and Google Maps of course [;)]



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (6/6/2009 2:07:17 PM)

A closer look at Hedgerow coding...

Hedgerows coding on new maps are different from the original CC5 maps (which are also included in CCTLD).
On the original CC5 maps (and the GJS maps), Hedgerows are coded with raised elevation (to represent the raised earth/mounds they were planted on). On the new CCTLD maps, Hedgerows are on level ground...without elevation coding...also (new) Bocage element is usually added in the center of Hedgerows.

Anyone notice this? On the new maps it's easier to get LOS through Hedgerows 'cause they're not as high as Hedgerows on the original maps?

Original maps:
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/CCTLD_mapcoding_0001.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/CCTLD_mapcoding_0002.jpg[/image]


New map:
[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/CCTLD_mapcoding_0003.jpg[/image]




Andrew Williams -> RE: Map error (6/6/2009 11:40:54 PM)

My personal view is the hedgerows should not be raised... otherwise it leads to massive LOS when you are on top of the hedges.



squadleader_id -> RE: Map error (6/7/2009 1:54:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

My personal view is the hedgerows should not be raised... otherwise it leads to massive LOS when you are on top of the hedges.


Fair enough...then the old maps should be recoded too...so we get one standard style of coding for all the maps.
IMHO...Large Hedgerows should be on raised ground...Small Hedgerows can be on level ground.

Here's an interesting read:
http://www.lonesentry.com/normandy_lessons/index.html

[image]http://www.lonesentry.com/normandy_lessons/combat_lessons_normandy_image1x.gif[/image]


[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/normal_24-hedgerow.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/normal_15_WWF_22_d_82AB__14.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/Bocage-01.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/normal_227.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19966/normal_cornrowtohedgerow.jpg[/image]



Andrew Williams -> RE: Map error (9/17/2009 9:07:35 PM)

You can see where the hedgerows are breached they bring the height down.... they actually went through the hedgrows not over them.

In CC if they are left raised then LOS is from the top, much like being being in a church tower... also leaving tanks stranded with every AT gun able to target them.



w777h -> RE: Map error (9/17/2009 9:29:29 PM)

How do you handle troops moving and shooting through the walls of a wooden building?

Would that coding be more appropriate given how dense those hedgerows are supposed to be?



Senior Drill -> RE: Map error (9/17/2009 11:31:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

You can see where the hedgerows are breached they bring the height down.... they actually went through the hedgrows not over them.

In CC if they are left raised then LOS is from the top, much like being being in a church tower... also leaving tanks stranded with every AT gun able to target them.



I haven't see very many church towers that were only 1.5 to 2 meters above the ground level. Andrew. Especially ones that are covered with trees. Have you? The American tanks only started to go through the hedgerows with explosives and the Culin device on "rhinos" in late Jun '44 and the full use wasn't until Operation Cobra starting on the 25th of June, '44. Well after the end of CCTLD's campaign scope.

Having the possibility of a tank getting stranded on top of a two meter high hedgerow via immobilization from the LOS blocking hedgerow tree elements is exactly what happened to many tanks. What then, is your objection? The maps need to be recoded to be like the original CC5 maps with higher terrain elevation of the hedgerows. The net effect is to REDUCE the overall LOS because of the tree elements on the higher terrain.

Andrew, your obstinate obstructionism on this topic shows great corporate loyalty, which is as commendable as it is politically confusing. But it ain't getting something in TLD that was done wrong in the first place fixed.



Andrew Williams -> RE: Map error (9/18/2009 3:45:54 AM)

it's my understanding that driving "over" the hedgerows was practically impossible... that's why they kept to the roads.


When the hedgerows were dug out the tanks passed through... even before the culin device.... see the dug out gaps in the pics above, they didn't do that 'cause they just liked digging.

There are impassable hedgerows that are just too big to dig out, coded at bocage in the game.


Tanks standing out like beacons on top of hedgerows was one of the bugs reported from original CC5.

If they got to the top they would have just crashed down the other side... not be able to maneouvre about as they can do in CC5



Andrew Williams -> RE: Map error (9/18/2009 3:49:35 AM)

Although there was this

[image]http://www.irintech.com/x1/images/jean/tank_jump_over_car.jpg[/image]



or look here

http://www.vii-corps.org/WWII/Chapter03.htm

[image]http://www.vii-corps.org/images/son.jpg[/image]


[image]http://www.skylighters.org/photos/poweek/hedgerow1.jpg[/image]



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