RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (Full Version)

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jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/27/2009 8:39:43 PM)

10-11 December 1942

Solomons

USN did not pursue, so looks like our net ship losses will be one CV and one AK. Fires are out on the other ships and most should reach Truk by end of this turn. Two other CV will be out of commission for the remained of the scenario, so this will leave us with an operational strength of 1 CV, 3 CVL and 1 CVE. Total deck space about 170. Roughly equivalent to two USN CVs.

The carrier planes that transferred ashore will start to wind their way back to Truk.

Truk
17th Army units will begin to plan to defend bases in the Central Solomons - all bases will have some defense - but Munda and Shortlands will have the heaviest concentrations. We will move 17th Army HQ to Shortlands.

18th Army units will replan for Papua with 18th Army HQ going to Lae.






jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 5:01:44 AM)

12-13 December 1942

Solomons

Unloading large supply convoy at Shortlands (20K supply). Send decent sized fast transport TF to Munda (4 APD, 2E) to delivery supply (about 800 pts). Will send Ashigara and 2 DD to cover Shortlands. Remnants of carrier groups continue to stage back to Truk through Kavieng.

Truk
Disbanding and consolidating air groups. Refueling fleet - 20K had accumulated during the sortie - all gone now - the 48K that was aboard the AOs is done to 15K. Unyo has 10 sys dmg - she will get the AR - other lightly damaged ships will repair "pier side". Surface TF of Four CA and four 4 DD will depart to increase surface defense of Northern Solomons.




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 5:53:25 PM)

14-15 December 1942

Solomons

Big supply convoy unloading at Shortlands sunk by enemy surface force - but at least 7,000 supply got to unload first - so now we have 12k supply at Shortlands. If we're gonna loose supply ships - might as well be defending something we can probably hold till the end of the scenario! [:)]

The Ashigara force was 3 hexes out from Short during the battle.

This turn we will run troop/supply convoys to both Munda and Vella - covered by the Tone (4 CA + 4 DD) force.

Truk
We sent all the heavily damaged ships home this turn to clear out the Port. Unyo still repairing sys damage with the AR. The Mavis and Emily's will start flying a SNLF to Rekata Bay. We will unload the AOs and use TK to carry fuel to Rabaul.




Cribtop -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 6:02:43 PM)

Thanks for this AAR. It has been a great read and the Guad scenario will probably be a good way to get used to AE.

A few questions if I may:

1) Regarding the carrier battle, one of the posters commented that it appeared Allied flak was the major killer. However, I noted that only 34 Zeros were on escort of the main strike. Can you comment on which factor was more important - CAP or flak?

2) At this point, do you believe you have any options that still result in Japanese victory, or at least keep this an Allied marginal victory?

3) Looking back, do you have any suggested tweaks to the scenario? In particular, do you think the IJA has enough ground assets to win? I am concerned that there may not be enough LCUs or supply to re-take Lunga or PM.

Thanks again for a great AAR. I particularly like your turn summaries - much easier on the eyes than reading combat reports and they contain the relevant info in just a few sentences.




Sardaukar -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 6:10:26 PM)

I think those fighter sweeps against Lunga were mistake when expecting carrier battle. They probaly added lot of fatigue and caused attrition to Zeros just when they'd be needed.

I think this was the killer (not necessary in terms of planes shot down, but for mission), not necessary the flak:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
B5N1 Kate x 68
D3A1 Val x 9
D3A2 Val x 77



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 117

Strike was not properly escorted and met enemy CAP with odds worse than 1 to 3...not good. Maybe, big maybe, if fighter escort had been 50-60 or more, success would have been better.




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 7:10:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I think those fighter sweeps against Lunga were mistake when expecting carrier battle. They probaly added lot of fatigue and caused attrition to Zeros just when they'd be needed.

I think this was the killer (not necessary in terms of planes shot down, but for mission), not necessary the flak:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
B5N1 Kate x 68
D3A1 Val x 9
D3A2 Val x 77



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 117

Strike was not properly escorted and met enemy CAP with odds worse than 1 to 3...not good. Maybe, big maybe, if fighter escort had been 50-60 or more, success would have been better.



As to the sweeps - well the two days that elapsed between the sweeps and the battle saw me fly out the land based zero units that had made the sweeps and fly in new ones - so I doubt expending those was the cause of the loss of the carrier battle - they were deemed to be expendable in the first place.

As to escort ratio versus cap ratio certainly debatable - depends on your on your definition of success - on your priority - my priority was to preserve the ships - which CAP would do.

In a real campaign game I never would've even fought this battle - would not fight a battle period under these conditions - but this is a scenario - and I am trying to behave in accordance with the victory conditions of the scenario even though they tell me to mostly do the opposite of what I would do in a real game. I'm sure good players can play these scenario and "show us how it is done" - I'm trying to play a demo scenario while doing 100 other things and messing it up royally I'm sure!
[:)]




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 7:13:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Thanks for this AAR. It has been a great read and the Guad scenario will probably be a good way to get used to AE.

A few questions if I may:

1) Regarding the carrier battle, one of the posters commented that it appeared Allied flak was the major killer. However, I noted that only 34 Zeros were on escort of the main strike. Can you comment on which factor was more important - CAP or flak?

2) At this point, do you believe you have any options that still result in Japanese victory, or at least keep this an Allied marginal victory?

3) Looking back, do you have any suggested tweaks to the scenario? In particular, do you think the IJA has enough ground assets to win? I am concerned that there may not be enough LCUs or supply to re-take Lunga or PM.

Thanks again for a great AAR. I particularly like your turn summaries - much easier on the eyes than reading combat reports and they contain the relevant info in just a few sentences.



As to questions on scenario balance - these would be better directed at Nik - he designed the scenario and probably knows how to play it on either side better than anyone else - at least at this point.

I'd say it needs to be played by someone who studied the OOBs on both sides - and had a good plan. I did neither!






Cribtop -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 7:20:15 PM)

Thanks for the responses. It seemed to me as well that 117 Wildcats were the real problem.

BTW, no criticism was intended. I'm sure my first efforts in AE will result in unmitigated disaster!




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/28/2009 7:22:47 PM)

Well definitely. If those 117 Wildcats had stayed on the deck we would've have much less problems! Of course the SBDs were a problem also - so we'd like those to stay on the deck. We'll go with the TBFs - those didn't cause much of a problem - they came in piece meal - after the "main attack" and mostly got shot up. They read the "Allies don't coordinate their strikes" manual! [:D] We'll let them off the deck.




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/29/2009 3:43:07 AM)

16-17 December 1942

Solomons

Mav/Em are deliverying a SNLF to Rekata Bay, it will take about another 9 turns to finish the work. There are 1100 supply at the base now.
Convoys are unloading troops and supplies at both Munda and Vella. The Ashigara group will go cover the Munda convoy. The Tone group will move to cover Shortlands.

Truk
A supply convoy is heading to Kavieng with another 5000 supply for that base.
A tanker covoy with 23K capacity is loading up at Truk and will head to Rabaul.
A surface force with 2xBB and 6xDD will head to Rabaul.

New Britain / Papua
APDs continue deliveries to Gasmata and Finschhaven.






jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/29/2009 5:34:55 AM)

18-19 December 1942

Solomons

Unloading continues at Munda and Vella. Mav/Em delivery of SNLF to Rekata continues. Coverage by Tone and Ashigara groups continue. BB group (2xBB and 6 DD) will sortie into central solomons to covering the convoys as well.

New Britain/Papua
A new Oscar unit showed up at Rabaul today and went straight into action against the B-24s which fly overhead.
APD runs to Gasmata and Finschhaven continue.
Convoy unloading at Kavieng

Truk
Tankers bound for Rabaul continue loading at Truk.




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 4:29:35 AM)

20-21 December 1942

Solomons

Unloading is complete at Munda, we have a good regiment (of the 38ID) and 10K supply shore here and will start to dig in.

At Vella B-24s and B-17s attacked our transports unloading and got one hit - the ship may survive but we will continue the unloading for now.

BBs, CAs, and DDs will continue to cover the transports unloading. The Ashigara group was attacked by B-24s this turn at Shortlands.

Garrison at Tass is in pretty good shape right now - they have 1500 supply on the ground and all units are full internally and looking good.

New Britain/Papua
APD runs continue to Gasmata and Finschhaven.

Supply total between Lae, Finschhaven and Buna is about 3300 - remaining roughly level. We're bringing in about 200 per turn and apparently spending about this same amount.

Truk
Mav/Em continuing to fly the SNLF into Rekata Bay.

24K Fuel Convoy will depart Truk this turn for Rabaul.

We noticed that Kitakami and Oii are actually the rebuilt as transport cruiser variants - so we have formed them into a fast transport convoy and will bring the 17 Army HQ to Shortlands.

Here is a pic of the attack on Vella and our cover cap from Shortlands engaging. Our "intel" indicates the Americans lost 4 of their 4EB this turn - though these planes were the only ones carrying out attacks.





[image]local://upfiles/7611/EDF2BAD2981A4160B17002BC2CF4F059.jpg[/image]




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 4:31:17 AM)

And here is a pic of the ship repairs at Truk. The Unyo is using the repair ship and has repaired one sys dmg point every other turn so far. The Chikuma has repaired 2 sys dmg per turn pierside over the past three turns.



[image]local://upfiles/7611/5361A8F137AE4248A8ECE3EDBAABC4B7.jpg[/image]




castor troy -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 7:12:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

And here is a pic of the ship repairs at Truk. The Unyo is using the repair ship and has repaired one sys dmg point every other turn so far. The Chikuma has repaired 2 sys dmg per turn pierside over the past three turns.



[image]local://upfiles/7611/5361A8F137AE4248A8ECE3EDBAABC4B7.jpg[/image]



Only one single example again but please tell me that this is not the norm now. One sys dmg point per turn and the heavy cruiser two per turns when repairing at Truk? Does that mean you can now repair a BB with 99 sys damage in something like 2-3 months in a major repair yard? Even for a CA this would be far too fast IMO.




Kereguelen -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 9:00:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Only one single example again but please tell me that this is not the norm now. One sys dmg point per turn and the heavy cruiser two per turns when repairing at Truk? Does that mean you can now repair a BB with 99 sys damage in something like 2-3 months in a major repair yard? Even for a CA this would be far too fast IMO.


There is a difference between major and minor damage in the AE. Minor damage may repair quite fast, for major repairs you'll need a shipyard and repairs will take much longer. Thus no full repair of a BB within 2-3 months.

If I remember correctly, Joe stated somewhere in this AAR that he did send back ships home (off-map in this scenario) that have suffered major damage because he could not repair them at Truk.




castor troy -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 10:57:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Only one single example again but please tell me that this is not the norm now. One sys dmg point per turn and the heavy cruiser two per turns when repairing at Truk? Does that mean you can now repair a BB with 99 sys damage in something like 2-3 months in a major repair yard? Even for a CA this would be far too fast IMO.


There is a difference between major and minor damage in the AE. Minor damage may repair quite fast, for major repairs you'll need a shipyard and repairs will take much longer. Thus no full repair of a BB within 2-3 months.

If I remember correctly, Joe stated somewhere in this AAR that he did send back ships home (off-map in this scenario) that have suffered major damage because he could not repair them at Truk.




I must have misread something then as Iīve thought there would only be major and minor floatation damage. Didnīt no that this would also apply to sys damage.




jwilkerson -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 3:37:18 PM)

Right, I did send the heavily damaged ships back to Japan.

Comparing SYS damage in AE to SYS damage in stock is somewhat erroneous. SYS damage ini stock includes an abstraction of many types of damage including major damage. In AE much of this "major" damage is moved over to the floatation and engine "major" damage categories. Hence SYS damage is now the "everything else" category - and is generally easier to repair than in stock. In stock a ship with 20-30 SYS damage is pretty badly beat up - in AE not as much the case. Regardless it would be pathelogical to have a case in AE where a ship had 99 SYS damage and zero floatation or engine damage. If such a case arose - the ship would probably repair faster than stock - but I have never seen such a case in AE.




Tanaka -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 8:24:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

04-05 December 1942

Solomons

Our fleet launched a long range fighter sweep against Lunga, sending in about 30 A6M2 from two different ships, hard to tell exactly what the losses were, but looks like we faced about 34 Wildcats and lost 16 A6M2 for about 13 of the enemy. We see a giant USN carrier fleet several hexes East of Lunga, but they did not intervene in the action.

Amphibious units continued South towards Shortlands, as did the AOs.

B-24s continued day light raids against Shortlands.

Papua
Our Lily's from Wewak launched a night attack against PM losing one of their number of obtaining no results.

Planning
The fleet will withdraw WNW to refuel. The Amphibs will continue to the jump off position for the run in to Tass. It looks like Nik will not commit his carriers until we try to land supplies or troops on Tass - and that Lunga strike planes are set to short ranged missions so they don't "expend" themselves against our carriers at long range.

Here is a pic of the air action.


[image]local://upfiles/7611/453A0A9EEDFF4582BB31780CA336AFBF.jpg[/image]


Firing arcs are still off in the art! [:(]




Sardaukar -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 8:25:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut


Does SYS damage also include some gun damage that is harder to fix than ordinary. maybe this is like major damage? Form what I see and read this is really good. There are easy to fix things and hard to fix things. if you fix the easy things you still have a ship but it is not as good as if you fixed every thing and if the major damage is too bad you have to repair in a port yard. This makes much sense to me.

MO


I bet gun damage is handled as destroyed/damaged mounts etc., just like in WitP. I think those would need shipyard to repair. But I bet jwilkerson can tell us more about it. [8D]




Erik Rutins -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (6/30/2009 8:44:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Firing arcs are still off in the art! [:(]


That's not the final art. For continuity, Joe and Nik are playing with a build that's several weeks old from when they started their AAR.

As far as the damage questions, System damage is no longer this all-enveloping category. System damage is pretty much "minor" damage now. Weapon damage is separate from System damage. Engine damage is a whole new damage category and both it and Flotation damage now are modeled with Major and Minor damage too. When you see a ship repairing System damage fairly quickly in AE, that's normal, because it's not the same as System damage in WITP.




castor troy -> RE: Guad Mod - AE Scenario 4 - AAR - No Nik (7/1/2009 10:24:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Right, I did send the heavily damaged ships back to Japan.

Comparing SYS damage in AE to SYS damage in stock is somewhat erroneous. SYS damage ini stock includes an abstraction of many types of damage including major damage. In AE much of this "major" damage is moved over to the floatation and engine "major" damage categories. Hence SYS damage is now the "everything else" category - and is generally easier to repair than in stock. In stock a ship with 20-30 SYS damage is pretty badly beat up - in AE not as much the case. Regardless it would be pathelogical to have a case in AE where a ship had 99 SYS damage and zero floatation or engine damage. If such a case arose - the ship would probably repair faster than stock - but I have never seen such a case in AE.



ok thanks joe




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