submarines - again (Full Version)

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LOK_32MK -> submarines - again (5/29/2009 5:31:22 PM)

This topic has been discussed by many others before (Eryk, mcgrecor et.al.) but I wanted to hear people's input before I embark on this task.

I am redesigning a scenario that includes a strong naval component. I realize this may be futile within TOAW but I am trying to implement subs within the "normal" TOAW i.e. without the Bioed.
I am NOT looking for a realistic sub or naval simulation. Just a small improvement of what we have now.

As Eryk and others have suggested you can use Guerrilla units as subs - they enjoy the advantages of a Guerrilla unit and if you pack them with lots of anti-ship vessels (e.g. missile frigates) they kind of resemble subs in a crude way (high anti-ship value no low bombardment but somewhat vulnerable). Also they will retreat go onto land.

My question is this:
Other than the loss of the guerrilla icon what other drawbacks are there? I am not looking for an explanation how this is not a good sub simulation but is there something in the game mechanics I am overlooking that will make this not workable. I did a small test scenario and it seemed fine but before I implement it in a large scenario I wanted to hear people's ideas.



golden delicious -> RE: submarines - again (5/29/2009 7:09:04 PM)

My advice is to use the event engine to do the lion's share of the work. Depending on the situation, this may give much more satisfactory results than the alternative.



ColinWright -> RE: submarines - again (5/29/2009 11:26:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

My advice is to use the event engine to do the lion's share of the work. Depending on the situation, this may give much more satisfactory results than the alternative.


I second that motion. Other than the Royal Oak, I can't think of a single specific ship sinking in World War Two that was the result of a specifically planned attack -- and even that was 'get into the anchorage and torpedo something big.'

It was largely blind luck. If you have a submarine counter, and move it to attack a specific unit, you've already ceased to simulate anything.



LOK_32MK -> RE: submarines - again (5/30/2009 1:17:48 AM)

Point well taken. Then would be the best way to simulate the Soviet submarine fleet trying to break out of the GIUK gap and sink US supply ships & reinforcements heading towards Europe?



golden delicious -> RE: submarines - again (5/30/2009 11:57:46 AM)

Depending on the scenario, either a fixed set of events where the supply, replacements and reinforcements of the NATO player are reduced by a variable amount (by using % probability events), or a TO for the Soviet player which allows him to trigger this action at a moment of his choosing.

If you want to get really exciting, you can allow the NATO player to switch air units out of the scenario to anti-submarine patrols, which will reduce the chance of severe consequences from the Soviet submarine attack.

Let's assume you haven't already used the EEV. Here's a partial example

Event 1-5: Turn 1, NATO TO "Withdraw x unit from Atlantic ASW duties and deploy?" [Or withdraw from Europe if you prefer]
Events 6-10: Activated 1-5, increase EEV by 1
Events 11-15: 50% probability, increase EEV by 1
Event 16: Turn 1, Soviet TO "Launch submarine offensive in Atlantic?"
Event 17: Activated 1, increase EEV by 10 "NATO reports increase Soviet Submarine activity"
Event 18: EEV = 20, NATO Supply -10
Event 19: 18 activated, NATO Replacements *75%
Event 20: 18 activated, activate 100
Event 21: EEV = 20 cancel 22
Event 22: EEV = 19, NATO Supply -8
Event 23: 23 activated, NATO Replacements *80%
Event 24: 23 activated, activate 100
Event 25: EEV = 19, cancel 26
Event 26: EEV = 18, NATO Supply -6
Event 27: 26 activated, NATO Replacements *85%
Event 28: 26 activated, activate 100
.... and so on
Event 100: Cancel TO from Event 1
Event 101, Event 100 activated, cancel TO from Event 2
And so on.



LOK_32MK -> RE: submarines - again (6/1/2009 4:14:46 PM)

Yes I agree this would be a good idea to implement.
However, let me suggest a similar idea that I am currently trying to implement:
Have a formation (in Garrison mode) with several "trigger" units (about 15-20) with light naval units that can be destroyed by air and/or naval attacks and essentially trigger the same effects you suggested:
Replacements NATO *80%
NATO Supply -5
etc.
The trigger units are far enough from the Soviet airfields to be reached by most soviet aircraft (except long range bombers) and I use "sea zones" to "block" the Soviet naval units. So effectively these units can not be easily attacked and destroyed unless the Soviets win the air-naval war.  To me that is more appealing that the event engine.
It also gives the most flexibility to the players in allocating their assets and move them around as the situation changes.  I thought that using guerrillas for subs would be "nice" addition but I honestly I can see your point too.




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