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miral -> Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/29/2009 7:52:23 PM)

I am on the last day of my monthly access to the internet so I would like to recommend this title(s) for two reasons:

Now, I am not claiming I'm the first person in the world to discover these; many on the forums may have read them. I just wanted to mention them in a post for those who are not acquainted with these essential titles.

This multi-vol, ten out one to go, history of Germany's WWII effort is now the standard, most in depth, most respected one. Pick a military historian of WWII and go find their review of these books. Keegan, Weinberg, d'Esta, you name one and I will bet they have a glowing review of these books. More in a minute.

Second, I got hit for some posts I made criticizing the German Army as an institution and its generals as individuals for being wretched strategists. I mentioned Germany and the Second World War in support of my opinions. None of the replies refered to these books and I have the impression that those who got onto me for shallowness of reading and opinion have not read them.

Now, these wonderful books. They were written by the scholars of the Potsdam Institute for the Study of Military History (hope I got that right, going from memory). These include Horst Boog (probably the world leading authority on the history of the Luftwaffe), Vogel, Forster and a good percentage of all the leading contemporary German military historians. Since I have been accused a few times of being 'anti-German' I find it particularly useful that these authorities are both German and agree with me. No, that is arrogant for they are the scholars. I agree with them; not on every topic, of course, but on most of the important ones.

Since there is and always has been such great interest in the Russo-German war in wargaming circles I direct you particularly to Vol.4, The Invasion of the Soviet Union, and specifically its chapters on intelligence, pre-invasion planning and logistics; all the unglamorous things that make the difference. In fact, there are, I think, at least as man pages on military operations than on these other things.

Some of these scholars opinions, condensed here or course, are:

1)The German command and most of the leading generals were operationally good, though expecting too much from their soldiers in too extreme conditions, and strategically incompetent.
2)Hitler can not be stuck with all or even most of the blame for the debacle; dreadful strategy ran down the whole chain of command. For instance, after the war, with the Fuhrer they grovelled before for years conviently dead, many German generals told the lie that they had been against the invasion from the first and Hitler overrode. We are shown here, with great documentation, that not a single high German general objected to the invasion and none doubted that the Soviet could be defeated in a few weeks. They were indeed victims of their military culture reinforced by 'victory disease'.
3)Logistics were the key that killed Germans. Before the attack the Wehrmact's own Quartermaster Dept told the fighting generals and staff generals that they could supply the army to the line of the Dnepr and not are further. I submit that for the generals to launch an attack of this magnitude in disregard of this and in full expectation of going beyond the Dnepr is indeed 'idiotic'.

There are vols on The Buildup to War, the Mediterannean, the Widening of the European War into a World War (vol.6 which continues the saga of the Germans strategic incompetence in Russia), to complete vols. on Organizations of Resources, Industry and Economy and many more. The depth of detail on the air and submarine wars is staggering.

These books are very expensive, from $300-$1000 a vol! You should be able to get them, as I did, through you local public library's worldcat interlibrary loan program, though a couple of the books seem not to be held by an American libraries in the loan program.

If you want the most in-depth, informed, and up to date scholarship on the German military in all its aspects then check out these marvellous books.

Thanks



Randomizer -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 12:30:39 AM)

Not new at all, back in the Eighties American analyst Bryan Fugate had written how the conventional accounts of Operation Barbarossa were wrong in most respects while the Russian Winter and Hitler got the blame (or credit depending on point of view) for high command bungling and incompetance.

You can read the book online here:

http://militera.lib.ru/h/fugate/01.html

History is like dogmatic, just like religion.  People will believe whatever they wish to believe regardless of any and all evidence presented to the contrary.  Any Internet discussions along these lines is both flammable and futile.  If you intend to think outside the box in a forum, better get your NOMEX suit ready.

Nothing to see here people, move along now...

Best Regards



06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 12:38:34 AM)

Although I'm sure the list of books is first class and full of in depth info, I cannot accept the idea that there were no alternative plans to Barbarossa. From many titles that have been available for many years it is clear to me that the General staff advised against Barbarossa. There was a belief that it could be pulled off in the 3 month timeframe, but there were many assumptions about Soviet abilities which created risks-Hitler was briefed on those issues. I recall about the Soviet tank production figures being made available to Hitler in the Autumn of 1940-he dismissed it as both exaggerated and unimportant as German tanks were supposedly better-on and on. Goering himself spoke openly about the invasion being unwise at that time, and even unnecessary to win the war. He also pointed out the ill effects it would have on the Luftwaffe-not because of any fear of the Red Air force, but the very serious disruption of German pilot training and over use of slim reserves. The German navy presented an entirely different strategic operation focused on the Middle East and N. Africa.

Any book that states that there were no opposition to Operation Barbarossa should be viewed with some skepticism-there must be some ulterior motive.
I agree that the German generals cannot have it both ways-they can't take credit for the early victories and pass blame for late war defeats. The type and scope of operations were ordered by one man with unlimited power. It was no doubt difficult (and dangerous to ones career) to tell that one fellow that there were better ways to do things, but some did.



06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 12:41:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Nothing to see here people, move along now...

Best Regards


Too late.[;)]



SS Hauptsturmfuhrer -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 1:03:56 AM)

Barbarossa was fairly doomed before it even started like Sun Tsu says battles are won before the fighting starts.  The reason is Hitler changed all the excellent plans which the staff had spent months developing, in particular Guderian's inspired ideas of deep armor penetration behind enemy lines to mess up the Russians while soldiers on foot cleaned up the stuff left behind.  So the late changes to the plans removing all strategic ingenuity depressed the generals badly and made the invasion dreadfully slower than it could have been.  Guderian, like some other generals, was a nervous wreck by start of Typhoon (the attack on Vyazma and Moscow) and had lost his strategic genius cause of stress and despair at his plans being thrown aside.  It is a very sad chapter in history that this great opportunity was wrecked.



sapper_astro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 10:21:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

Barbarossa was fairly doomed before it even started like Sun Tsu says battles are won before the fighting starts.  The reason is Hitler changed all the excellent plans which the staff had spent months developing, in particular Guderian's inspired ideas of deep armor penetration behind enemy lines to mess up the Russians while soldiers on foot cleaned up the stuff left behind.  So the late changes to the plans removing all strategic ingenuity depressed the generals badly and made the invasion dreadfully slower than it could have been.  Guderian, like some other generals, was a nervous wreck by start of Typhoon (the attack on Vyazma and Moscow) and had lost his strategic genius cause of stress and despair at his plans being thrown aside.  It is a very sad chapter in history that this great opportunity was wrecked.


An excellent chapter in history actually. Not sure how the WA would have gotten ashore in the face of an all powerful 3rd Reich without the Russians holding them off and eventually beating them back.

Thanks for the recommendations Miral. I will certainly take a look at them.




wosung -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 2:22:34 PM)

Germany and the Second World War: Volume VII: The Strategic Air War in Europe and the War in the West and East Asia, 1943-1944/5: 7 (Germany and the Second World War) von Horst Boog, Gerhard Krebs, und Detlef Vogel von Oxford Univ Pr (Gebundene Ausgabe - 29. Juni 2006)

Germany and the 2nd World War: The Attack on the Soviet Union/With Maps: 4 (Germany and the Second World War) von Jurgen Forster, Joachim Hoffmann, Ernst Klink, und Rolf-Dieter Muller von Clarendon Press (Gebundene Ausgabe - August 1998)


I also have to recommend this series of some 12 or 14 volumes (at least two volumes contain to books each). It’s a 25 year long project of MGFA, the German official Research Centre of Military History, formerly Freiburg, now Potsdam.

It’s mainly written based on archive files, not sampled from retrospective apologetic memoires of Nazi generals, like many ww2 histories popular on the American print market. Thus, this is a piece of historical writing as solid as it can be.

Like a very bright american scholar wrote: “collapsed states are the historians best friends”: The 3rd Reich and the DDR probably offer the most open archive repertoire of all states in the 20th century.The authors of the said series used them to the full extend, including the Federal German Military Archive in Freiburg, the Federal Archive in Berlin, Russian Special Archives, American, British Italian and Japanese Archives.


It is also to mention:

These are really expensive books.

The series is an academic enterprise, thus sometimes perhaps written a bit dry for sake of presenting facts, lots of facts.

The title of the series is its program. That means, it’s not a complete overview of WW2, but centered on the German war effort. Nevertheless there are also some chapters about Japan and all papers about the War in Europe naturally also are concerned to quite an extend with the other participants of the war.

The series comes more or less in chronological order, starting with diplomatics in the 1930s endig with the collaps and foreign occupation in 1945. But there are also a couple of volumes about wartime economy, and wartime society.

Because it was started in the 1980s, it also, to some extend, does reflect the changing focus of German historiography, thus being a historical artefact itself. The last volumes completing the series were published in 2008 in Germany. There they were critcizised for having somewhat outdated research interests: too much operational military details, not enough about topics of more recent interest, like forced labour, the shoa.

And yes: Nothing new about operation Barbarossa 1941. Why? Simply because this volume was written back in 1983.

On the other hand there are many volumes, which have impressed me deeply (having had my share of WW2 lecture), mainly for decouvering the Wehrmacht superman myth, later on the totally recklessness, even against the own people, in a war which has been already lost.

For the wargamer, grognard and game designer (dear Gary Grisby, you hear me!?) the series presents quite a ton of useful statistics, charts, facts and many top notch maps.

For me data highlights were:

The two volumes about German war production. Frex there are quite telling charts about the production numbers of most weapon systems or about the table of org & equipment of the five types of infantry divisions after the failed Barbarossa (divs fully/partially ready for offensive ops plus three types of Stellungsdivisionen, defensive divs).

The volume about the forgotten war in Russia 1943/44, publ. 2007. This arguably is the one, which goes down to the operational and tatctical level. It contains an alternative interpretation of Kursk, a fascinating discourse about Russo-German strengths and weaknesses in the middle of the war. This includes quite revealing data about tank performances, based on Erstschusswahrscheinlichkeit (first shot probability) indicating the German ability to dominate the race in tank technology, albeit not in numbers. This volume also presents in detail the last and some mainly unknown German armoured offensive operations on the Eastern front. Those were partly at the same scale as the Battle of the Bulge: like the tank battle of Warsaw in August 1944, operation Doppelkopf 1944, the better known tank battle for Budapest (Konrad 1-3, including some interesting remarks about city sieges in WW2).

Besides, also the papers about the air war (lots of data, technical details) and the war at sea (anybody knows about German submarine operations and a German seaplane base in the White Sea?!) are to be recommended. They destroy all phantasies about wonder weapons to remodernize an already demodernized Wehrmacht: No fuel for jet fighters. No air recon for super subs.

Bottom line: Despite the price, this books are worth to be read. Hopefully the English edition will be translated quickly, to avoid more “nothing new” remarks.

Regards



Perturabo -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 3:19:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

Barbarossa was fairly doomed before it even started like Sun Tsu says battles are won before the fighting starts. The reason is Hitler changed all the excellent plans which the staff had spent months developing, in particular Guderian's inspired ideas of deep armor penetration behind enemy lines to mess up the Russians while soldiers on foot cleaned up the stuff left behind.

I wonder how would the Guderian's tanks be supplied with fuel and spare parts during that deep armour penetration...



06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 5:45:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Bottom line: Despite the price, this books are worth to be read. Hopefully the English edition will be translated quickly, to avoid more “nothing new” remarks.
Regards



I really doubt that all of those previous generals and historians which wrote about this era were liars-if any. No doubt that there is still a wealth of information in these books, but the German government has an obvious mission of indoctrination of its people regarding the NAZI era. I'm am not saying that there is "nothing new" in these titles (looks like there is a hue amount of new info), just that there is very likely a political slant which is particular to modern Germany.

It should be noted that the last Chief of the General Staff who was chosen in the traditional fashion (Halder) was fired by Hitler in September of 1942-few here would need 3 guesses as to what campaign and climatic battle these differences came about. The point is that there were in fact many who openly opposed Hitlers thinking/tinkering, but it became more difficult as time went on. I will take the word of the honorable men who were there at the time dealing with these horrible situations.

I will keep an eye out for these titles. If those are too expensive for me to buy I will present the list to the public library-they are supposed to buy any book requested-we shall see.



wosung -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 7:27:26 PM)

quote:

I really doubt that all of those previous generals and historians which wrote about this era were liars-if any. No doubt that there is still a wealth of information in these books, but the German government has an obvious mission of indoctrination of its people regarding the NAZI era. I'm am not saying that there is "nothing new" in these titles (looks like there is a hue amount of new info), just that there is very likely a political slant which is particular to modern Germany.




Hu well. All I want was passing some info about those books, because I already read most of them.

It seems, that you are not very well informed about German historical discourses about “3rd Reich”. Those Nazi Generals had very good reasons to gave their memoirs a certain spin at least. Those were the times of beginning Nazi law cases (not only Nuremberg), of dememorization of the past.

Believe me, most of them lied. About the Entanglement of Wehrmacht with the Nazis (most high officers were donated huge chunks of land in the East), about their involvement in the organized murder of jews and Eastern European “Untermenschen” (Babi Yar), about their military hybris and growing incompetence, about their fanaticism in the last years of the war, when they knew their case was lost.

The German high command fighting on to save the civilians from the Red army is plainly a myth. In 1945 civilians had the least transport priority behind the Eastern front, even cattle came first.
Or take Rommel. Another myth, glorified not only by Nazi propaganda but also by Western media. (The one, who beated multinational Commonwealth forces had to be a genius). There are some recent documentaries and books redefining his picture, based on archive work.

Most German officers memoirs exactly fitted in the post war time: Forget the past, blame everything on the dead Hitler, the NSDAP and the SS. And besides the Generals and some military personnell really nobody then cared for the history of WW2 in the 1950s and 1960s.

It’s always bad, when the actors themselves write their own history. That’s why archive research is so important. Sure, every generation has its own questions towards history and its own interpretation of history. But archive research helps to bind those interpretations to the facts.

And concerning “the German government has an obvious mission of indoctrination of its people regarding the NAZI era.”:
Federal indoctrination regarding the Nazis? Well, Germany seems to be quite a stable democracy nowadays. There’s no easy way of indoctrinating the people in a polyphonic media setting, a Mr. Goebbels wouldn’t be amused with.

And about the “political slant which is particular to modern Germany”: How would you like to have the Germans nowaday? Like the overconfident yelling militarists from all the pulp movies?!

Best thing indeed is: Go to a good libary. Take a deep look. And make up your own mind.

Regards




Charles2222 -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 7:52:31 PM)

wosung:
quote:

The German high command fighting on to save the civilians from the Red army is plainly a myth. In 1945 civilians had the least transport priority behind the Eastern front, even cattle came first.


Depends on what set of civilians you're talking about, but they were civilians nonetheless. Try reading about the great Baltic evacuations, particularly as pulled off by the German Navy. Some of the greatest maritime disasters occured during that period due to USSR subs torpedoing passenger liners pressed into evacuation for Doenitz. So, clearly, it's anything but a myth, at least in the surrounded Baltic areas in '45 by the German Navy. Yes, they were probably all German civilians and injured Wehrmacht personnel, but they were specifically were holding those areas for that purpose. The number of civi's evacuated probably exceeded the military that was evacuated by the British at Dunkirk.



Lützow -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 7:56:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

The German high command fighting on to save the civilians from the Red army is plainly a myth. In 1945 civilians had the least transport priority behind the Eastern front, even cattle came first.



Tell this my grandma who got a spot for her and the kids at one of the last outgoing trains from Silesia, before the Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people. If the Wehrmacht had not delay the russian advance, I couldn't write here nowadays.

Frankly, I consider some posts in this thread as rather offending. If you're looking for German books, covering East Front, I'd rather suggest post-war era titles like 'Unternehmen Barbarossa' and 'Verbrannte Erde (Scorched Earth) from Paul Carrel.




06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 8:52:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Hu well. All I want was passing some info about those books, because I already read most of them.


And I'm glad you did. As I said already, I'm sure there is a wealth of info in these books.

quote:

It seems, that you are not very well informed about German historical discourses about “3rd
Reich”.


[;)]

quote:

About the Entanglement of Wehrmacht with the Nazis (most high officers were donated huge chunks of land in the East),


There was indeed a high level of support for the NAZIS in the early years-there was good reasons for that. That support started to wane even before the war started.


quote:

The German high command fighting on to save the civilians from the Red army is plainly a myth. In 1945 civilians had the least transport priority behind the Eastern front, even cattle came first.


Germany was not the only country to fight a total war.

quote:

Or take Rommel. Another myth,


I am aware of Rommel's affiliation. He actually had a very low number (early member) party card. I have seen many posts in various forums or in face to face discussions where someone was adamant about the "fact" that Rommel was not a "Nazi". I have not even bothered to respond to those silly statements for years.

quote:

Most German officers memoirs exactly fitted in the post war time:


While memories were fresh?[;)] No doubt there were some not very flattering events left out of the various memoirs, but there were also some very good studies of the war-from western scholars (not including Eisenhower's "Crusade in Europe".

quote:

It’s always bad, when the actors themselves write their own history.


I disagree. As always, one should be aware of possible "slants" when reading anything.


quote:

Federal indoctrination regarding the Nazis? Well, Germany seems to be quite a stable democracy nowadays.


True, (and a job well done) but there was a cost to be paid-and still being paid. I am certainly not second guessing the leadership of Germany as to what is best for their country-no doubt they know better. None the less, there was/is a price that must be paid-and they have made good on that.

quote:

There’s no easy way of indoctrinating the people in a polyphonic media setting, a Mr. Goebbels wouldn’t be amused with.


Actually, I think Dr, Goebbels would be green with envy at the way that "news" or "information" is controlled these days. While it is actually easy to learn of different perspective in this info age I think there is a rather small percentage of people that read news from around the world. As a "news/current events/history buff" since the age of 12 (over 4 decades ago) the availability of info from around the world is by far the greatest thing to come about from computers. News junkies are somewhat immune to the standard pablum which passes for new's today, there are just not enough of us.

quote:

And about the “political slant which is particular to modern Germany”: How would you like to have the Germans nowaday? Like the overconfident yelling militarists from all the pulp movies?!


[;)]-No. It would be nice to be able to tell (more of) the truth, but that is not how the world is. I recognize that is how it must be sometimes.

quote:

Best thing indeed is: Go to a good libary. Take a deep look. And make up your own mind.


Been there-done that-for decades and I have made up my mind. Not to say that "change" is impossible, just unlikely-maybe shock therapy would do it. In any event-I will keep reading-including your suggested titles.

Please do not construe my statements to be a "Nazi apologist" as I am not. I simply have some empathy for those people that were caught up in an impossible situation. I am not defending the murderers/crazy racists, but the professional soldiers who did what they had to do and did it well under the circumstances.

Best Regards





Randomizer -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 10:24:29 PM)

The 'nothing new' remark was because there is and has been for quite some time, a considerable number of scholarly works published that are at variance with the accepted history of both World Wars. However, the vast majority of 'history buffs' and posters on wargaming forums simply read the tired standard accounts or watch superficial TV documenteries that regurgitate the conventional wisdom and consider themselves all knowing without ever actually applying any critical analysis into the subject.

It is certainly excellent that some people at least are trying to address some of the logical contradictions in the commonly held versions of events and that sources are out there that allow it. Bravo.

Keep an open mind, beware of spin, follow the evidence and employ a skeptical eye when using first person or biographical accounts of an event. It can make History fun again.

Best Regards



Perturabo -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 10:25:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

I am not defending the murderers/crazy racists, but the professional soldiers who did what they had to do and did it well under the circumstances.

Professional soldiers who have fought for the murderers/crazy racists instead of fighting against them.



06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/30/2009 11:36:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

I am not defending the murderers/crazy racists, but the professional soldiers who did what they had to do and did it well under the circumstances.

Professional soldiers who have fought for the murderers/crazy racists instead of fighting against them.


Brave words. Of course everyone sitting at there desktop today knows exactly how they could have stopped the flow of events of WW2-to bad there were no brave and honorable men around back then.[8|]



Helpless -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 12:14:23 AM)

quote:

before the Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people


really?

quote:

I couldn't write here nowadays


not that bad thought




06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 12:16:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

The 'nothing new' remark was because there is and has been for quite some time, a considerable number of scholarly works published that are at variance with the accepted history of both World Wars.


Understood.

quote:


However, the vast majority of 'history buffs' and posters on wargaming forums simply read the tired standard accounts or watch superficial TV documenteries that regurgitate the conventional wisdom and consider themselves all knowing without ever actually applying any critical analysis into the subject.


There are a few of use that watch a "documentary" only when they feel like having a laugh. Same goes for the vast majority of war movies.
I have seen multiple experts on TV who, if given an enema, could be buried in a matchbox. It is a safe assumption that those who would read the above mentioned books have much more than a superficial interest in the subject. Still, one should not assume that there is no need to be wary of various claims simply because of the source.


quote:


It is certainly excellent that some people at least are trying to address some of the logical contradictions in the commonly held versions of events and that sources are out there that allow it. Bravo.


Agreed. Discussion/study is always a good thing.


quote:


Keep an open mind, beware of spin, follow the evidence and employ a skeptical eye when using first person or biographical accounts of an event. It can make History fun again.


Agreed. It should also be kept in mind that just because some info is labeled as "new" does not mean one should accept it as 100 true. Even historians that clearly are going to pains to stick to the facts have a hard time concealing their bias in some way.

If someone is really interested in the truth they should not limit themselves to one version of a situation-that is only making yourself vulnerable to brainwashing. And it does not matter whether it is an autobiography or a government study-be prepared to put on the mud boots.

Too bad such accusations were not made about the generals while they were still alive. Ahh, the ease of slandering dead men.
Regards



06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 12:30:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

before the Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people


really?

quote:

I couldn't write here nowadays


not that bad thought




I know a man who is from Breslau. He was 15 years old when Germany surrendered. There were many millions of Germans who suffered the same things he did (including his father being KIA on the Russian front). Lutzow simply stated facts as related to him regarding a specific comment about German generals. If you knew a little more about what transpired in those days in eastern Germany you would not have made the comment you just did. Not flaming you at all, but that is what could shut down a start of an interesting discussion-if it already not too late.





Helpless -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 12:39:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Lutzow simply stated facts as related to him regarding a specific comment about German generals. If you knew a little more about what transpired in those days in eastern Germany you would not have made the comment you just did. Not flaming you at all, but that is what could shut down a start of an interesting discussion-if it already not too late.





Oh yeah, now it's a "fact" that Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people.. [8|]



Charles2222 -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 12:49:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

before the Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people


really?

quote:

I couldn't write here nowadays


not that bad thought




I know a man who is from Breslau. He was 15 years old when Germany surrendered. There were many millions of Germans who suffered the same things he did (including his father being KIA on the Russian front). Lutzow simply stated facts as related to him regarding a specific comment about German generals. If you knew a little more about what transpired in those days in eastern Germany you would not have made the comment you just did. Not flaming you at all, but that is what could shut down a start of an interesting discussion-if it already not too late.




Obviously, his statement of "every" person being slaughtered in an exaggeration, but as far as the civilians of the time were concerned, it was accurate, because you couldn't be foolish enough to stay behind and think they would spare you.



06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:08:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless


quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Lutzow simply stated facts as related to him regarding a specific comment about German generals. If you knew a little more about what transpired in those days in eastern Germany you would not have made the comment you just did. Not flaming you at all, but that is what could shut down a start of an interesting discussion-if it already not too late.



Oh yeah, now it's a "fact" that Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people.. [8|]


We are getting a little OT, but all I will say is that it did happen in a big way in many areas. Entire towns were never heard from again-not a single survivor. I don't think Lutzow meant to say everyone in Silesia was killed-only making a point that the German Army did in fact do their best to allow civilians to get away. Its rather clear that millions did survive both the initial onslaught and the following "resettlement". Although the subject is taboo in some areas-especially Germany, the fact is that many did not survive.

If these new books deny certain realities to suite some modern program, then it should be pointed out. As many historical books go, these will most likely have a few areas where an ax is being ground. These should still be read as it sounds like a huge amount of detailed info. Whether the info is 80% or 99% accurate will never be agreed on by all.



Helpless -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:16:29 AM)

quote:

Entire towns were never heard from again-not a single survivor.


sources? or do you mean Dresden?




06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:26:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

Entire towns were never heard from again-not a single survivor.


sources? or do you mean Dresden?




This is not the place to get into this. And no, not Dresden. If you like I can send you a link to some info.



SS Hauptsturmfuhrer -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:27:32 AM)

I recommend people to read this book to learn about how the Russian and German soldiers behaved in the final days of the war.  It is based on personal accounts of people who were in the thick of the fighting.  It is written by a British army officer.

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Halbe-Hitlers-Spreewald-Pocket/dp/0750936894



Helpless -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:35:02 AM)

quote:

mainly for decouvering the Wehrmacht superman myth


i do agree on many statements, but if we take only military aspect, all the stats show that Wehrmacht was superior to the it's foes. Here is quite interesting pages from Zetterling Normandy book showing Dupuy formulas..




[image]local://upfiles/13846/088CEF7F1C2D44CAB3299B266AD030A6.jpg[/image]



Helpless -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:36:05 AM)

quote:

If you like I can send you a link to some info.


yes, please

Edit: I just hope it's not a Beevor or another "chilling, but true account" like this

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Halbe-Hitlers-Spreewald-Pocket/dp/0750936894




06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:43:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

If you like I can send you a link to some info.


yes, please

Edit: I just hope it's not a Beevor or another "chilling, but true account" like this

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Halbe-Hitlers-Spreewald-Pocket/dp/0750936894



PM sent.



wosung -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 1:48:17 AM)

quote:

Tell this my grandma who got a spot for her and the kids at one of the last outgoing trains from Silesia, before the Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people. If the Wehrmacht had not delay the russian advance, I couldn't write here nowadays.

Frankly, I consider some posts in this thread as rather offending. If you're looking for German books, covering East Front, I'd rather suggest post-war era titles like 'Unternehmen Barbarossa' and 'Verbrannte Erde (Scorched Earth) from Paul Carrel.



Oh yeah, the Paul Carell books are exactly what I meant, when I spoke about apologetic war memoirs from the 1960s. They wre translated into English and often cited by British and American historians. He was one of those, who formed the picture of the Wehrmacht not only in Germany, but also in the USA and Britain.

You know who this Mr. Paul Carell was?

His name is an alias for Paul Karl Schmidt (1911-1997), 1931 member of the NSDAP, psycological doctor, SS Obersturmbannführer, 1940-45 public relations chief of the German Foreign office. As a specialist for media manipulation he recommended to create faked reasons for the deportation of Hungarian jews in 1944.

After the war, in the good old 1950s under the alias of Paul Carell he wrote frex for the German newspapers Die Zeit, Der Spiegel and Kristall, where fellow journalists quitted their jobs when they learned his background.

Can't you see it? It's like having Comical Ali write a History of the last days of Saddam Husseins regime.

Wigbert Benz, Paul Carell. Ribbentrops Pressechef Paul Karl Schmidt vor und nach 1945, Berlin 2005.

Jürgen Zarusky, Nützlicher Überflieger. Die merkwürdige Karriere des Paul Carell [A useful rocket scientist: The bizarre carreer of Paul Carell], in: Süddeutsche Zeitung,No. 239 (17.10.2005), p. 10.

As for your grandma fleeing from Eastern Germany: Sorry to hear that she was a victim of this horrible time.

But it were German Gauleiter (Nazi party area leaders) in the East, like Erich Koch et al., who 1945 under “Führer” orders forbade the timely evacuation of the civilian population, but theirself got out of Dodge when it was time. And the Wehrmacht leadership more times than not monoplized the traffic routes and chased of civilian refugees. Dönitz became sucessor of Hitler not because the Kriegsmarine saved civilians, but because he was one of the toughest hardliners who wanted to fight on in May 1945. German occupation generals in quite Denmark and Norway complained, that they had no occasion to send their troops into a last real battle.

Heinrich Schwendemann, Strategie der Selbstvernichtung. Die Wehrmachtsführung im “Endkampf” um das “Dritte Reich” [Strategy of self-destruction. Wehrmacht leadership in the “final battle” for the “Third Reich”], in: Die Wehrmacht. Mythos und Realität [The Wehrmacht. Myth and reality], p. 224-244.

Sorry that I’m unable to cite sources written in English. But that fact exactly is part of my whole point: Parts of popular book culture in Britain and the USA is still dominated by old German apologists. This is not because of some evil & dark forces. Just because translations are expensive. And that’s why the above mentioned series is valuable.

Regards



06 Maestro -> RE: Read the superb Germany and the Second World War (5/31/2009 2:56:42 AM)

Well Wosung, you have really got my interest up to read these books. Perhaps you can convince the German Government that, for the good of the world and the study of history, that it should subsidize the translations of these works.[;)] Seriously, I would love to read them-and I am not quite fluent in German (an understatement).

You should not assume that all histories from the war here in the states are sympathetic with the German Army. I will not venture to put a percentage on it, but there are many I recall reading that seemed unduly harsh and had clear inaccuracies- it is not a one way street here.

The fact that the author in question was a Nazi/SS officer does not mean that he cannot write a good and factual history. If was of a mindset that it was OK to ship people for murder, that is another situation altogether. If he did do that; was he not prosecuted?

I know of one "Nazi" that I hold in very high esteem as a writer-Leon Degrella. He joined the Wallonian Waffen SS as a private (and ended the war as a general) after Barbarossa. That man's related first hand accounts of the front are absolutely stunning-by far the best that I have ever read. He was a great author regardless of his allegiance during the war. I have no reason to doubt his truthfulness. He was a published author before the war and continued in that venue (from Spain) after the war.



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