No DOW Allowed (Full Version)

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easterner -> No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 7:17:02 AM)

Austria was unable to DOW Tunisia from Naples. Computer stated no troops in range. The following turn a DOW was again denied despite the Austrians now being based at Palermo, Sicily.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 11:23:40 AM)

What version are you using?



pzgndr -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 1:54:14 PM)

I had a situation in v1.06 as Spain where I could not DOW Algeria although I had troops and transports in port within range and ready to invade?  Once I took Morocco and had troops on the ground within range, I was then able to DOW Algeria and invade from the sea.  The game should consider all acceptable movements including naval transport and forced marching when determining if troops are within range or not.  Players should assume these risks when making DOWs, and not simply be blocked by the program?



NeverMan -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 3:32:01 PM)

Honestly, this is a waste of work for you Marshall... why not just let the players DOW anything they want and make it their job to tell if they can get there or not? I've tried to make this point before too. At least that way, if you took off the restrictions, you would eliminate these types of bugs, like the one pzgndr is having here.



easterner -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 4:54:50 PM)

1.06 beta


I disagree with NeverMan, there is no point in having a computer if you don't let it do the job of the scut work for the player. Over water DoW not an issue in previous versions, therefore it should work. Now if it was an ongoing problem I would say add a menu choice.

"No Forces in range, do you still wish to Dow? YES NO"

But doubt such is necessary.



obsidiandrag -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 5:24:12 PM)

NOPE.. this was brough up before I believe.. the reason for the limit is so Austria can not declare on Egypt in Jan 1805 just so England can gain control and keep it with Austria not even intending to invade it..  And the like.. IF you remove the movement restrictions, anyone can declare on anything to let someone else gain control of it.

OD



pzgndr -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 6:20:55 PM)

EiANW should strive to implement the original rules wherever possible:

quote:

4.2.2.3: War may not be declared on a neutral minor country if it is physically impossible for the declaring major power to enter the minor country's territory during the Turn.


The issue is getting the computer to correctly recognize all moves "physically possible" and allow those DOWs to proceed. If there are still some movement algorithm issues (ie, path too complicated, which I continue to see) then maybe some slack (1-2 MP) could be provided for the DOW checks. But yeah, we don't want anyone to be able to declare on anything, inconsistent with the original rule.



bresh -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/3/2009 9:15:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

EiANW should strive to implement the original rules wherever possible:

quote:

4.2.2.3: War may not be declared on a neutral minor country if it is physically impossible for the declaring major power to enter the minor country's territory during the Turn.


The issue is getting the computer to correctly recognize all moves "physically possible" and allow those DOWs to proceed. If there are still some movement algorithm issues (ie, path too complicated, which I continue to see) then maybe some slack (1-2 MP) could be provided for the DOW checks. But yeah, we don't want anyone to be able to declare on anything, inconsistent with the original rule.



Well somethings are hard to code.
Lets say a MP has reinforcements upcomming(corps+factors), currently the MP can not DOW a neigbour if no corps near,
even though he could place his reinforcements in a corps and reach the minor. So code makes those conquests take a extra month before able to DOW.

The DOW so some MP can get a minor free, is in our pbm-games handled by houserules, since as it is, some minors could easy become "controlled", eg as we play it. Its not allowed to DOW a minor with the intend to lapse war.
Same goes for Darnelles.

Regards
Bresh



NeverMan -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 4:04:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

EiANW should strive to implement the original rules wherever possible:

quote:

4.2.2.3: War may not be declared on a neutral minor country if it is physically impossible for the declaring major power to enter the minor country's territory during the Turn.


The issue is getting the computer to correctly recognize all moves "physically possible" and allow those DOWs to proceed. If there are still some movement algorithm issues (ie, path too complicated, which I continue to see) then maybe some slack (1-2 MP) could be provided for the DOW checks. But yeah, we don't want anyone to be able to declare on anything, inconsistent with the original rule.


I absolutely agree with you and I understand why the rule is in place (though if I had some jackhole do that I wouldn't be playing that game for very long); however, like you say pzgndr "wherever possible" and to this point "possible" is not working out. After a year this part of the game simply does NOT work still so maybe it's not possible for Marshall to properly implement this bug free!?



Marshall Ellis -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 12:54:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: easterner

1.06 beta


I disagree with Everyman, there is no point in having a computer if you don't let it do the job of the scut work for the player. Over water DoW not an issue in previous versions, therefore it should work. Now if it was an ongoing problem I would say add a menu choice.

"No Forces in range, do you still wish yo Dow? YES NO"

But doubt such is necessary.


One tester did find an issue in 1.06.00 that I did fix in the new 1.06.01 so soucl you email me the game and I'll dbl-check it?




obsidiandrag -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 1:25:42 PM)

I have to admit Bresh has a very valid point that I have not tried to test etc.. (but am sure it is already so)  If you plan on invading somewhere, the computer needs to take into account counter purchases and upcomming reinforcements and allow a declaration based on those reinforcements that can be raised and moved in.  This would be easier outside home nation because there would have to be a depot (supply line) but anything near a home nation is fair game on a reinforcement phase where troops are comming in.

OD



pzgndr -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 1:29:56 PM)

quote:

Lets say a MP has reinforcements upcomming(corps+factors), currently the MP can not DOW a neigbour if no corps near, even though he could place his reinforcements in a corps and reach the minor. So code makes those conquests take a extra month before able to DOW.


This is a good point. Technically, according to the original rule and the phase sequence, you should not be able to do this in the board game either but players could make ftf agreements that this is acceptable. But what if you did and deliberately allowed the DOW to lapse for gamey purposes, was there a houserule penalty imposed?

quote:

"No Forces in range, do you still wish yo Dow? YES NO"


Maybe this should be considered, but with an additional PP penalty (3PP?) to discourage obviously gamey tactics? I mean, if the code is going to miss obvious troops with naval transports in range and the not-so-obvious placements of reinforcements that can be in range, then either we deal the extra time needed to position ground troops in range or accept a compromise, ie a DOW override option with additional PP penalty.



obsidiandrag -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 1:46:59 PM)

It would be a drastic change (probably sould be an option) but you could remove the range restrictions all together and impose an additional -2pp per minor for a "Lapse of War" which would mean if Russia did not make it to the declared Sweeden it would be a -4 for the combined Sweeden and Finland.  This I would think would be ALOT easier to program than looking for markers etc that can reach by all means necessary and would force the players to look closer at thier capabilities for reaching the place. 

However, I have relied on the "can not reach" in the past as I have though I could reach but my boats were in the "blockade box" rather than the port so they could not pick up the troops there and move them on the next turn.. I couldn't see it but the computer could.

OD



Marshall Ellis -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 1:48:35 PM)

We did allow DOWs in earlier BETAs BUT I was blasted for this (rightfully so IMO) by the testers so I'm VERY hesitant to do this. You should be able to reach the minor AT THE MOMENT of the DOW! That's the key!




obsidiandrag -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 1:53:44 PM)

Good enough for me - and I have seen this ALOT less in more recent versions.



NeverMan -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 2:55:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

We did allow DOWs in earlier BETAs BUT I was blasted for this (rightfully so IMO) by the testers so I'm VERY hesitant to do this. You should be able to reach the minor AT THE MOMENT of the DOW! That's the key!




pzgndr, weren't you NOT able to DOW the minor AT THE MOMENT even though you could techincally reach it!?

The system is broken.



Jimmer -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/4/2009 9:29:01 PM)

There's a relatively simple way to correct for the placement of corps in reinforcement not being taken into account when DOWs occur:

Have the game check again at the end of reinforcement for distance. If none of that power's forces are in range, reset the minor to neutral and subtract 1PP from the power who was granted control.

Leave the 1PP loss for the idiot who didn't check range stand. It serves him right. :) You can skip this paragraph if you like.

Regarding whether to revoke checking or not, though, don't. It's far too necessary to keep lousy sports from being themselves.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/5/2009 2:46:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

We did allow DOWs in earlier BETAs BUT I was blasted for this (rightfully so IMO) by the testers so I'm VERY hesitant to do this. You should be able to reach the minor AT THE MOMENT of the DOW! That's the key!




pzgndr, weren't you NOT able to DOW the minor AT THE MOMENT even though you could techincally reach it!?

The system is broken.



If that is the case then yep, send me the game at the diplomacy where you could not DOW the minor and I'll look at her. Like I said earlier, we did find some of this in 1.06.00 and it was fixed in 1.06.01





easterner -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/5/2009 7:33:43 PM)

need ME's email address to send!



pzgndr -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/6/2009 1:40:02 PM)

For Spain, you can see this using default setup on Turn 1.  Castanos is in Cadiz with transports.  Spain can DOW Morocco, but cannot DOW Algeria.  Since Spain does not have a land route to Morocco because it is blocked by Gibraltar, it appears the game does consider units in range using naval transport?  The issue may just be Algeria and some setting.  Clearly Spain is in range of both Morocco and Algeria, but can DOW one and not the other. 



bresh -> RE: No DOW Allowed (6/7/2009 11:28:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

We did allow DOWs in earlier BETAs BUT I was blasted for this (rightfully so IMO) by the testers so I'm VERY hesitant to do this. You should be able to reach the minor AT THE MOMENT of the DOW! That's the key!




Marshall if this is the case, you should only check for Corps able to reach.
Russia can DOW Sweden, while only able to reach Sweden with Cossaks and hence lapse war.

Regards
Bresh



ndrose -> RE: No DOW Allowed (7/7/2009 4:18:10 AM)

I've just run into a similar problem in 1.06.01, only in this case there's no amphibious operation in question: it's a straight overland cross-the-border deal, but it says I don't have forces in range.

Possible factors that could be confusing the game's decision tree (though I haven't noticed any of these being a problem before, and none of them should be a problem): the invasion force is all minor corps; the place from which they are invading is a free state; it's at the edge of the map, where weird movement stuff seems occasionally to pop up.

Posted at Mantis.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: No DOW Allowed (7/7/2009 1:48:35 PM)

I took a look at this and it tested fine in 1.06.02




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