!!! Pbem Combat Phase / Replay Bug !!! (Full Version)

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mdpeyrot -> !!! Pbem Combat Phase / Replay Bug !!! (5/27/2002 10:53:58 PM)

This has already been reported by apbarog and Matto but I wanted to put it with a nice attention grabbing title.

In PBEM games, when the Japanese player loads the save and executes combat (generating replay file), [B]the combat phase is being shown from the US perspective[/B]. The japanese player sees all the US TF's and mines (and no jap ships). Now, I realize the replay file should be from the allied perspective, but surely the Japanese player should have a viewable combat phase.

Also, the replay file [B]must[/B] be password protected. Even with a fixed Japanese combat phase, he must not be allowed to view the US replay file.


Ones expects bugs in games of this complexity, but this one definitely should have been caught.



Slaughtermeyer -> happens to me too (5/28/2002 2:25:45 AM)

So far I've played only one PBEM turn of the '43 campaign as Japanese, when I looked at the replay I did see the Allied minefields at Port Moresby and Gilli Gilli, something I did not see during my order entry phase. Looks like I'll have to put all PBEM activity on hold until the patch comes out.



dgaad -> (5/28/2002 11:54:09 PM)

Well, between this thread, other comments, and my own experience, I'm convinced something is wrong with the PBEM replay feature, and would sure like to hear from Matrix about it. I apologize if Matrix has already commented and I missed it.

I am in a PBEM game as American and appear to be getting a partial Japanese replay.

I receive the 001 dat file and the 002 savegame dat file from my Japanese PBEM partner. I load up the replay first.

When the replay screen opens I am looking at Truk, and can see a bunch of Japanese subs, apparently heading south. I see them for a few seconds, and then they disappear.

During the remainder of the replay, I get several Betty spot reports (they are finding my subs) and get absolutely zero of my own activities. I am currently engaging in some behind the scenes air activity which should be reported (for example moving supplies by Dakota). But, I get nothing. In this turn, I get two messages that Rabaul air missions are cancelled due to bad weather, but absolutely no reports about my own activities.

The next thing I do is load up my actual turn in order to play it out. I can see that my air activities have taken place, but only because I can see the supply levels and that some troops I'm moving by air have moved. There is nothing in the combat reports for that day. Absolutely nothing.

So, Matrix, we PBEMers would sure like a status report on this puppy, because playing a PBEM here is rather dicey at the moment.



Erik Rutins -> Problem noted... (5/29/2002 12:04:53 AM)

We're on top of this - the problem has been found and will be fixed for the first patch.

This seems to have been introduced in the last build before release and the extent of it seems to be that it allows a glimpse of some Japanese TFs symbols and some US Sub symbols. While we want these fixed, neither should be game-breakers given planning/execution delays and TF movement. You can consider them signal traffic intelligence for now.

Dakota activities and such will not normally be reported in a PBEM replay. Apart from the reported occasional sightings that seem to be without fog of war (as noted above), I've seen no other problems with the replay. Please elaborate if there's something else you've noticed.

Regards,

- Erik



dgaad -> (5/29/2002 12:35:52 AM)

Erik :

I disagree, I think it is a game breaker, and the reason is I think the problem is more extensive than has been adequately explained by me or anyone else.

Cutting to the quick : I think that, at least in my case playing on the American side of the game, I am seeing a TRUNCATED JAPANESE REPLAY, not a FULL AMERICAN REPLAY. For other players on the Japanese side, from what I have read, I think they are seeing a TRUNCATED ENEMY REPORT instead of their own.

The spot reports of the Bettys bother me. From what I can see, it looks to me like I am getting the spot reports that should be reported to a Japanese player. I realize that in playing a game against AI I will see spot reports if my sub sees the enemy aircraft that spotted it. This is something different. It seems like the reports that would be given to the Japanese player.

Another thing that bothers me : when I hit the "end turn" arrow, the save game screen comes up with a meatball instead of a star. This makes no sense, and furthers my suspicion as outlined above.

Another thing that bothers me : I have combat losses in ground troops, presumeably from enemy air attack, but I have yet to see a single report of this attack.

In another thread on this issue I've also advocated that this be handled as an emergency patch and pushed through the dev cycle as a single issue fix.


Anyway, just my thoughts.



Erik Rutins -> Reports... (5/29/2002 1:14:02 AM)

Dgaad,

If everything you describe actually bears out, then this would be more serious. However, I'm pretty darn sure that the replay is otherwise working properly. I don't think anyone's getting a truncated replay or a replay for the other side. We focused a tremendous amount of testing on the replay and making sure it matched the combat results. As far as I can tell, apart from the fog of war bug that got into the last build, everything else is working as advertised.

If you can narrow this down any further or provide me some zipped save/replay files to examine, I'm willing to look into it. I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns, but a tremendous amount of evidence and testing has to be weighed against your suspicions.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> One more note... (5/29/2002 1:15:46 AM)

The combat losses you're seeing on those ground troops. Could that be deterioration due to malaria? Where are they based and how do you know they've been under air attack if you've received no reports? What degree of losses are we talking about?

Regards,

- Erik



dgaad -> (5/29/2002 1:29:48 AM)

Erik : I'll do my best to keep monitoring the situation in my PBEM games and will report here if I can provide useful details regarding the scope of the problem. I have no doubt, however, that your staff has equal access to the issue, and far more expertise.

In the PBEM I'm playing, I haven't had any reports of any combat at all, and the combat report is always blank. I'm only on May 4th however, so that's not ususual. The small amount of plane losses to date can be operational losses, but I do have 1 point worth of ground combat losses -- these can be explained by disruption since there are currently 2 hexes with insufficient support.



mdpeyrot -> (5/29/2002 3:01:05 AM)

Erik,
I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying the Japanese combat phase is fine except for some sub TF's due to a FOW bug? I really don't think this is what I'm seeing. I'm referring to the combat resolution the Japanese player views, not the replay file sent to the US player. I'm assuming the Japanese player should be seeing the combat/sightings from his perspective and the US will get the replay file which shows it from the US perspective. Correct?

As the Japanese player, I am pretty sure I am getting a US-oriented combat resolution. There are different interface bmps for US and Jap sides, I have recolored my jap bmps to be green. When the combat starts, the view is centered on Truk with jap interface bmps (my green ones), but before the action starts, it switches to the blue US interface bmps and I can no longer see Japanese TF's (except those spotted by US). I do see US subs, minefields, and surface fleets. IIRC, Hovering the mouse over US TF's gives ship types and mission like you get from friendly forces, not spotting reports.

I'll do some more testing tonight, but I think it's more than a FOW bug.



dgaad -> (5/29/2002 3:15:42 AM)

mdpeyrot : this is exactly my situation. Something "feels" wrong with the report. I haven't redone my backgrounds for the US or Jap side, but I swear it looks like I am seeing a Japanese combat report. I can't see any of my own task forces either. It looks like the game is trying to give the US player the report of what the japanese player can see.



dgaad -> (5/29/2002 3:37:49 AM)

Here is another indicator that the combat replay report currently being given is actually the wrong one.

In my game, I got a message for Rabaul air missions cancelled due to bad weather. Thats fine, I would get those even as the American player. However, I got NO OTHER REPORTS of cancellations. And Rabaul is the only base on which the Japanese have aircraft. I got NO cancellation messages for ANY OTHER bases. I got NO spots of japanese TFs from US planes. I got ONLY spots of US TFs from JAPANESE planes.



dgaad -> (5/29/2002 3:39:41 AM)

ERIK : I highly advise the staff to begin playing a game, zipping up the files and emailing them to each other just like we do.

Also test out what happens if the japanese player forgets to send the replay file on the first turn he is supposed to do that.

I'm getting "that old sinking feeling" that the scope of the problem is greater than you currently have data to suggest.



mdpeyrot -> (5/29/2002 4:31:35 AM)

dgaad,
My recollection is that the replay file was exactly the same as the combat phase I viewed (ie from the US viewpoint). I haven't looked at one since I became aware of the problem. I'll take a look when I get home.

I'll start a pbem game and play both sides myself to see what I can figure out.


Mike



mdpeyrot -> Test results (5/29/2002 9:08:57 AM)

Ok. I ran a couple tests and this is what I found:

While viewing the combat resolution as the Japanese player (not the replay file), it is indeed showing the US combat. With a long message delay, I can hover the mouse over units and get the pop-up info on them. US units give full information that one gets from friendly units. When I hover over japanese units, the information is as when viewing enemy units. In fact, checking ground units actually says 'ENEMY'.
I then loaded the replay file and did the same tests. The results were identical. The replay file does NOT show the Japanese perspective (other than briefly at the beginning).

I don't think there is a problem with the replay file. It looks to be just what the US player should be seeing.



dgaad -> (5/29/2002 9:23:25 AM)

Matrix : based on mdpeyrot's test, I think we have a problem of greater scope than previously described.

I will myself do a double blind test pretending to be both an american and japanese player, and attempt to confirm what is now more than just a mere suspicion.



Erik Rutins -> PBEM... (5/30/2002 2:13:34 AM)

Just an update to let you know that this is now the top priority item for the first patch. We're looking into this quite seriously.

While PBEM was tested extensively (as the AARs no doubt showed) the replay section was also one of the most complex the most changed parts of the code.

Right now, what you're seeing is the combined replay, which should show some info from each side but shouldn't give anything away in terms of TF composition, etc. We're focusing on making sure that fog of war is fully in place.

Regards,

- Erik



Arkady -> (5/31/2002 7:03:54 PM)

Yes it is combined report :)
I can see some air attacks of my opponent and he said that this never appeared in his report and vica versa.
Hope that patch fix it.
Don't hurry, we'll wait. Just fix it.



Caltone -> (6/3/2002 8:46:36 AM)

Just to add my $.02

I am in my first pbem game as allies in scen 17. After 4 turns I can report that during replay:

The focus starts on Truk with the weather forecast dialog box up. Before one clicks on the box or hits escape, there are Japanese TF's visible to the allied player. These disappear once the weather box goes. So far this is all I have seen but we haven't had much combat yet.

Would think this needs pretty immediate attention. Point is moot though when playing vs the AI. Take the time you need.

Still the best wargame I have ever played :D



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