Subs and torpedoes

Subs and torpedoes (Full Version)

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Jagger2002 -> Subs and torpedoes (5/28/2002 1:50:37 AM)
I have been playing for about a week now and everything feels pretty good except subs and possibly mines. It seems that the best US sub strategy is to park all subs in Truk or Rabaul harbor. The best Japan strategy is to park all their subs in Brisbane or Noumea harbors. It seems that harbor minefields and the many ships and aircraft and shallower water doesn't have much of an impact on subs. Subs are next to impossible to sink anyway, so the best strategy is just park them in a enemy harbor. You get a lot more targets and I don't seem to lose any more subs than anywhere else. Is that the way subs were used in 42 and 43? Are the US torpedo problems of 42 and 43 modeled? I don't seem to notice any problems with US torpedos. I am going to do some testing on mines before I comment on them. Some odds and ends: On the information screen, the total number of damaged Japanese ships is higher than the number of ships that have been damaged in action. Do those numbers also reflect ships with normal wear and tear damage? When I have one of my cargo ships sunk, it would be nice to know what cargo or troops were carried on the ship. In the middle of Bouganville, hex 27,32 is portrayed as a land hex but I had some ships plot a route right through that hex. Are non-engineer troops capable of building the minimum level one port or harbor? Just curious.

U2 -> Re: Subs and torpedoes (5/28/2002 2:00:07 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jagger2002 [B]I have been playing for about a week now and everything feels pretty good except subs and possibly mines. It seems that the best US sub strategy is to park all subs in Truk or Rabaul harbor. The best Japan strategy is to park all their subs in Brisbane or Noumea harbors. It seems that harbor minefields and the many ships and aircraft and shallower water doesn't have much of an impact on subs. Subs are next to impossible to sink anyway, so the best strategy is just park them in a enemy harbor. You get a lot more targets and I don't seem to lose any more subs than anywhere else. Is that the way subs were used in 42 and 43? Are the US torpedo problems of 42 and 43 modeled? I don't seem to notice any problems with US torpedos. [/B][/QUOTE] When you get the new subs ( arrives in Noumea NOT the ones in Brisbane at the start ) you will notice that their torps are less effective. Playing against the AI with subs is not difficult. Have you tried parking subs in a harbour against a sharp PBEM player? I dont think so. Dan

Jagger2002 -> (5/28/2002 2:06:43 AM)
Actually that is a good point. I have absolutely zero success against US subs in my harbors using my ships and planes. What are good tactics to stop these attacks?

Nikademus -> harbors not always the best (5/28/2002 2:18:36 AM)
The AI set up a nice thick picket line along the best axis route for Truk/Rabaul/Coral Sea, a minor little facet i forgot completely about and blithely sailed a major CV TF through before realizing it The result......one torpedoed CA which had to break off to Rabaul for temporary repairs, then a trip to Truk and of course a long journey back to Japan Dang CA had only just got here too!!!! arrrg :mad: Now i've learned to pay more attention to sub sighting reports and too more carefully plot my TF movements to avoid these concentrations. Problem solved mostly however if your hoping to get into action quickly such as i was (i had sortied because i deteceted a CV group heading towards Port Morosby) having to divert arounda sub concentration can mean the difference between intercepting and missing. A nice safe way to utilize your subs i'll say. Guess the AI isn't completely stupid :p

a300mech -> (5/28/2002 2:19:13 AM)
An interesting situation which I have noticed as the US player is that my sub commanders will make some interesting tactical decisions. Such as a fleet type sub on it's way to Truk to lay mines which decided to engage in a gun duel with a Jap MSW. It was promptly sunk. My Sub skippers are also fond of using torpedoes against barges, even when they've plenty of fuel left with which to search for more suitable targets. Why can't I set a doctrine for my sub captains to save their fish for large targets (APs, DD,s and larger). I wouldn't mind if they used their fish against smaller targets if they were almost out of fuel. Also it seems to me that subs on minelaying missions should ignore all but the juciest targets while on their way to lay mines. Once their "eggs" are laid they could move elsewhere and begin hunting.

Wasp -> MINES!!! (5/28/2002 4:03:59 AM)
Well, from the earlier comment about mines, I have used mines like crazy from the start. I took just 3 mine layers and mined the crap out of Lunga and the surrounding areas ( I did this in the beginning of the game) The American AI just keeps getting blown out of the water one after another...... It's starting to become crazy. I have already sunk 3 carriers; the Hornet,(3 type93 mines, couple of type 95 torps from a sub) the Yorktown, and the Lexington, both by airstrikes. So far in the game, I have sunk a score of ships from CAs to DDs, to AKs from mines. (I think somewhere around 8~12 ships. And I'm only in September of 42!) So mines do work!!!! Especially if you mine the same hex 2~3 times or more. Sure, if you are playing against a smart PBEM player, they can attempt to send in minesweepers, but usually the numbers of the mines are just too much. I tested this theory, and it worked. I mined an hex 3 times, saved the game, and switched sides. I sent in a fleet of minesweepers to the hex. Automatically I get some minesweepers sunk by mines, but the mine sweepers find the mines, and start to clear the hex. But just because the game tells you a path has been cleared does not mean you can send in other TFs, becase when you send in anoter TF like I did, you will usually get one or two hits on your ships, and the consequences can be quite nasty: This ranges from 3~4 ships being hit to the same ship hitting mines 2~5 times, usually leading to their demise. So just keep on pumping out those mines and have fun. Just don't assume the hex is safe just because the game tells you a path has been cleared. Make sure all the mines are gone beforehand.

Jagger2002 -> (5/28/2002 4:33:31 AM)
What is interesting about mines is that all the major harbors are already mined-at least in the "Mo Op" scenario I am playing. However I have never seen a sub hit a mine in a harbor. I have seen them hit mines elsewhere but never in the big harbors like Truk, Rabaul, etc. I wonder if the minefields are working in harbors???? That would explain why harbors are so defenseless. I have also noticed that the game will not allow me to lay mines in existing mined harbors such as Rabaul, Truk, Shortlands, etc.

Wasp -> They work fine (5/28/2002 4:37:32 AM)
OK, the mines work fine in huge harbors. I took one of my I-class subs and sent 4 of them on a mining mission to Noumea. Soon after mining Noumea, a CA gets hit by mines, then a CV hits a mine, but I'm assuming there is no real damage done, unless the ships take multiple mine hits, or the AI is stupid enough not to fix the CV and keep on running it with all kinds of damage!

Ron Saueracker -> Here we go!!! One mine per square mile and kaboom! (5/28/2002 5:00:12 AM)
Sounds like the AI had better get on the ball. New UBER weapons like First World War tech mines are turning the tide. It's a good thing the actual adversaries did not know about the potential of mines because military history would be quite boring. No CV battles, no sub campaign, no need for aircraft. Why build nukes when mines do the job for a fraction of the price.:rolleyes:

Jagger2002 -> (5/28/2002 5:14:07 AM)
Wasp, when you sent your Jap sub into Noumea did it hit an American mine? Noumea is mined to keep enemy subs out but they don't seem to work. My point is that the defensive harbor mines already in place don't seem to have an impact on enemy subs. Although newly laid mines do work though. Of course, I haven't been able to add mines to my own harbors. I don't believe mines will have a major effect if minesweepers are used. And there are only a small number of minelayers that can lay large fields. I have never tried using subs to lay mines but I know they only have 2 or 3 mines vs the 125-150 of the surface minelayer. I am assuming the subs mines are not massively affective due to the low number of mines. I haven't really tried them.

Hartmann -> (5/28/2002 5:26:22 AM)
Even though I really mine like hell, and therefore, the enemy quite often hits my mines, the damage done seems rather minor. I recently encountered a TF where the heavies had just hit several mines in the same turn, but they were not even smoking! Hartmann

Wasp -> Re: Mines (5/28/2002 5:35:25 AM)
No, my sub did not hit a mine at all in Noumea. Perhaps the game did not include that factor. That's another one added to the laundry list of things to put on the patch. Ok, to your comment about mines not being so effective, try taking one of those mine laying boats that can lay 150 mines. Just try those out! :D Oh man, do they dish out alot of punishment. If you take these minelayers and mine a same hex 3 times, you would need a whole fleet of mine sweepers to sweep all the mines, and you will always lose 2~3 minesweepers in the process anyway. No real damage but just small pinpricks. And if you get tired of sweeping mines and thinks the hex is safe for surface fleets, think again because until the hex is totally clear, the hex is never safe!!! Like I said earlier, I mined Lunga about 3 times with these MLs, and the Americans could never sweep the area clear of mines!:D :D :D And when the AI thinks the area is safe and send in a Carrier TF in the mined hex, that's where the party begins! Oh, I almost forgot, make sure you put 2~3 subs in the same hex as the mined hex. It will be a nasty surprise for the enemy when they run into 2~3 mines, then get hit by the deadly long lanse torpedoes!!!:D :) That's how I sunk the Hornet. My total: scratch 3CVs one to mines and two torpedo hits, the others to overwhelming airstrikes by my LBAs from Lae. By the way Lae is a pretty good base considering only bombers from Gili Gili and Port Moresby can bomb it. Right now LBAs from Rabaul and Lae is on the Round a clock bombing of Port Moresby. My plan: take Gili Gili and Port Moresby then just leave some CD forces and some AA forces and leave. Also thinking about making a base ( I forgot the name of the base, but it is a base right under Salamaua. I captured it earlier.) If I turn this into a good airbase, it would be good, becase the Americans cannot reach me, but I can destroy any invasion fleet headed my way! But supply problems have forced me to reconsider my idea. Whooops! I think I'm getting carried away too far. Well, I think I will end it right here before I get too happy:)

Wasp -> (5/28/2002 5:38:09 AM)
Hartmann, that's why when you mine a hex, you leave some subs in the same hex as well. Especially in ports. Sure, mines do only minor damage, but when combined with topedoes, they do some major damage! Keep it patient and it will come. Trust me on this one. I've tried it and it worked.:)

Ron Saueracker -> They have to fix this stuff. (5/28/2002 4:31:23 PM)
At least with regards to the AI opponent. It's starting to get silly, don't you think? It's a pretty big ocean but these mines are having a strategic impact, whereas in real life they were but a nuisance. How effective is mine warfare in PBEM games where harbors are properly sewn and swept? Aircraft carriers sinking in minefields....geez. Let's play Sea Battle on Intelivision!:rolleyes:

von Murrin -> (5/28/2002 5:28:27 PM)
The AI does just fine sweeping the mines from it's harbors. Unless you're like me and you wait until they hit one and then send in some subs. In my current game, I managed to sink nearly all the IJN minesweepers that way. :)

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