The guy in the foxhole next to you.

The guy in the foxhole next to you. (Full Version)

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m10bob -> The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 7:01:25 PM)
Rather than hijack another thread, I just wanted to poke some holes in a fellow forumites beliefs. Civilians and journalists, and armchair historians ponder why people go to war in the first place, and some have said they could not do it unless they really believed in it...............personally. Some have repeated that Americans fight for "the flag, the church, mom's apple pie"... Rubbish You go into the service because either your nation has told you to, or you enlist as part of the price of being a citizen, and sometimes you don't want to be forced to change the way you live. During WWII, some powers had forcibly entered other nations, and had forced people to change their way of life. In fact, they even ended some of those peoples lives. I have no value for someone who would need to "feel warm and cozy" about getting into harms way before they would consider the alternatives of sacrificing their neighbors, family, etc, to a foreign (and maybe evil) power. In the end, a man sits in a foxhole and fights not for the apple pie, nor the flag, but for the guy next to him. Dad was a warrior,a veteran of 2 wars and his baptism to the armed enemy was about 5 A.M on Omaha beach on June 6th as a commissioned 2Lt with the 29th I.D. He later served as a regimental S 2 officer in the 45th I.D. in Korea, and once bragged he was the only "white man" on Old Baldy and Pork Chop Hill, on a couple of occasions when those properties did not belong to "the good guys". As I was growing up, he would sometimes tell me a man might consider himself very fortunate if he could leave this mortal coil and say he had as many friends as the fingers on one hand. When I asked what a friend was, he would consider the question and tell me to judge my fellow man in this way: Is this somebody you would want in the foxhole next to you, when you are otherwise alone, low on ammo, and everybody else is against you? Would this person be the one to stay there and point his rifle in the same direction as you, or would he "cut and run". The ones who would do the latter, or even now, reading this, justify the latter, are nobody I would want anywhere near me. War, or peace. Peace to my brothers in arms.

Terminus -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 7:19:02 PM)
That was the quote in Blackhawk Down: "It's not about the politics, it's about the guy in the foxhole next to you". I've never been to war (luckily), but I'd like to hope I'd fight well if I had to. I'd also hope my reaction time would be a bit faster than normal, so I could duck when people started shooting at me...[:D] If "Japan" wasn't so odious, I'd feel sorry for him for having that world view. But I don't, somehow.

Charbroiled -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 7:44:29 PM)
I would guess that a person that would say that people that believe in honor are ignorant or that they would pick and choose the battles they would fight have never spent a single day in the military and are the ignorant ones.[:-]

JWE -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 7:48:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: m10bob Rather than hijack another thread, I just wanted to poke some holes in a fellow forumites beliefs. I’m gonna break my rule of not responding on these threads, because your post just breaks my heart. Screw the piddly little politico-pukes and the jumped up quasi-intellectual , moral cowards. Yeah, I went into the service because my country called, and my family had a tradition of responding to that call. Once I was there, it came down to doing what I had to do for my friends, my unit. My first duty, as a soldier and officer, was to my men. My second duty was to support other men by effective artillery fires. Both duties were the same, to bring as many as possible, home. As you say “a man might consider himself very fortunate if he could leave this mortal coil and say he had as many friends as the fingers on one hand.” I think you really get the concept m10bob, don’t let the pissants get ya down. Ciao. John

skrewball -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 8:10:31 PM)
I know the person your talking about...and I hate to tell you m10bob that there is no convincing him. There was an argument he started a while back about how the government shouldn't waste money on sending the bodies of fallen soldiers back to their families. I foresee this topic getting locked.

Canoerebel -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 8:15:26 PM)
There's another reason that men, mainly the younger ones, go to war. The sense of adventure and camaraderie and passion that may be engendered when a conflict threatens or breaks out. Perhaps not so much today, but put yourself in the shoes of some 18-year-old "yeoman farm laborer" way out in the sticks in the American South in 1861. War erupts with the north and young men all over the South hasten to voluntarily join military units. Some of these men joined out of some higher political notions, but it's my firm belief that most of them were lured by the adventure, camaraderie and passion that is so enticing to young men. He's just begun a life of backbreading, rather boring toil on a farm and suddenly all his friends are meeting and marching and putting on uniforms and going off to Virginia. And the young ladies and old men are waving flags and cheering them on. That young man is going to war because of an honest, earnest, but naive impression of war. The older men aren't quite so quick to "jine up," and fewer still will be men of any age who "jine up" when the war becomes a horrible, painful drudgery. Let me clarify: this is NOT a negative statement. War is sometimes necessary and many people fight for the noblest of reasons. But I think most young men who volunteer do so out of a sense of adventure and to escape a sense of boredom (even if these feelings are subconcious). Edited to add: But once you leave home and reach the battefield, the sense of romance and adventure and higher ideals like patriotism are pretty much out the door and it does boil down to your comrades.

Terminus -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 8:26:42 PM)
This is historically true. No need to qualify it, Canoerebel. Plenty of young men in many wars were eager to get to the fighting, eager to get in before it was over and they missed their chance for "glory".

John Lansford -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 9:12:11 PM)
That was also the explanation given by Bergerud in his excellent books on WWII in the South Pacific. Young men were not as likely to think about the dangers involved in following an order; they just did it and trusted to luck, fate, or their abilities to get them through it. Even men as "old" as in their mid-late 20's, they found, started thinking about the risks too much, and often it got them killed. I suspect that's as true today as it was back then.

Barb -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 9:34:10 PM)
Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are. (one ofthe Murphys laws of war [:D] )

Erik Rutins -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 10:16:52 PM)
While I understand and agree with the general sentiment, it's not acceptable to turn this personal. Keep specific forum members out of the discussion please. If you start publicly picking out who will not be in your foxhole, this thread goes bye-bye.

whippleofd -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/11/2009 11:44:29 PM)
RTLFC People engage the enemy because they are at the wrong place at the right time. People run from an engagement because they are at the wrong place at the wrong time. It is all about doing what you need to do to get out of the engagement in the shortest period of time with the fewest casualities to the people who mean the most to you at that time, those under your direct command at that specific finite period of time. If someone would like to try and rationalize my reasoning or debate my dedication to the boarding party I lead during search and seizure operations in the Persian Gulf as part of Operation Ernest Will convoy operations in 1988, PM me. I'll give you my address, we can meet and I'll "debate" with you. It will be a one way conversation, I can assure you of that. Why did I engage in these operations? Simple. I was ordered to. Why did my team engage in these operations? Simple. I ordered them to. I love it when those who have never done something try and figure out why those who have done something did it. No amount of explanation will ever explain anything to those who haven't been there, and for those who have, no explanation is needed. Sheese, go back to discussing other things you don't know anything about like "sunk -v- scuttled" or F4F -v- Zero or pissing and moaining about AE being vapor-ware. Whipple

Japan -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/12/2009 12:12:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whipple RTLFC People engage the enemy because they are at the wrong place at the right time. People run from an engagement because they are at the wrong place at the wrong time. It is all about doing what you need to do to get out of the engagement in the shortest period of time with the fewest casualities to the people who mean the most to you at that time, those under your direct command at that specific finite period of time. If someone would like to try and rationalize my reasoning or debate my dedication to the boarding party I lead during search and seizure operations in the Persian Gulf as part of Operation Ernest Will convoy operations in 1988, PM me. I'll give you my address, we can meet and I'll "debate" with you. It will be a one way conversation, I can assure you of that. Why did I engage in these operations? Simple. I was ordered to. Why did my team engage in these operations? Simple. I ordered them to. I love it when those who have never done something try and figure out why those who have done something did it. No amount of explanation will ever explain anything to those who haven't been there, and for those who have, no explanation is needed. Sheese, go back to discussing other things you don't know anything about like "sunk -v- scuttled" or F4F -v- Zero or pissing and moaining about AE being vapor-ware. Whipple ***************************************************************************************************** I get emotionally effected by reading this things, so I should have refrain from replaying. I usually have a problem with this sort of debates, and I don't think I handle it in very well because I let my self get involved. *************************************************************************************************** I prefer to decide for myself who I swear allegiance to, I do not consider that I have any duty to a country only because I was born in it. So, I have no sympathies for Pro-Military people, they are Victims of their own Ignorance. If you are one of the ones who are willing to go to war because someone tells you to, then you might end up being one of the ones making war necessary. I think that any man must make up his own mind about things, and If he relied upon others to think for himself then he might just as well have become a terrorist. (Depending on were he is born, and on what Tradition, Culture, Value and Rules he learn from his society ect ect ect). Let Me Finnish with** The few experiences and the limited things I have seen is more then enough to me. In 1999 I was part of the KFOR force who entered Yugoslavia, in 2003 I spent 6 months of my life working for UNICEF with Civilian Aid, I also visited Grozny 2 week's in 2004, and in 2006 I spent 4 months of my life again doing a similar thing. I did plan to join a UNICEF mission to Eritrea during 2009, but have canceled it, I might do it during 2010 we will see, I don't know. Writing have always been one of my hobby's, and In 2005 I wrote a book about my wives on war and politics, and last year I joined a political party (on local level) due to my interest for politics. I Apology for the "negative" debate I might have caused here on your forum, and I see my involvement in it as my own weakness, and for that I am sorry. I will try to refrain from replaying to this type of posts in the future.

heenanc -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/12/2009 12:58:32 AM)
I haven't read much of this thread and have been away a while but I'm going to add a point. "that people that believe in honor are ignorant" Do you know that all wars are a 'war of nations' and not a 'war of ideals', every peoples of every nation in the world has different views. The people living in Communist Russia may have been Capitalist, but just because they live in Communist Russia doesn't change their beliefs. However, they are forced to fight for their government just because of where they live (Propaganda kills lives, americans are the worst at the moment). At the end of the day you're fighting for the beliefs of the 'men at the top' against the befliefs of the 'men at the top of the opposite side'. At the end of the day would you really kill your next door neighbour because he believed in a different way of life (every person in every nation has different views)? Thats not even what happened on the battle field, the people that were killed in Iraq were soilders not people who were against America and they weren't people who supported Sadaam (nation vs nation, not a way of life vs a different way of life). Honour doesn't mean anything if you're killing people for the sake of nation rather than ideals. You can't change people's ideals by war, only propagdana. EVERYONE ONE IN THE WORLD HAS IDEALS, 'WE' ARE ALL DIFFERENT NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE FROM. People who fight wars are ignorant because they are fighting people who, (mostly) have the same views as them, (peace, stability, freedom, harmony, etc.). Everyone has this outlook on life, if you believe differnet then you are wrong; (North Korean people, Chinesse people, British people, etc. basically the whole world over people 'DON'T WANT WAR AND WANT PEACE' it doesn't matter who there ruled by). Russian people were 75% Capitalist in 1960 by de-poll Nations are fake but ideals are real, you don't have to kill people for ideals but you do for nations. WAKE UP!!!!!! Peace out.

Erik Rutins -> RE: The guy in the foxhole next to you. (6/12/2009 1:40:42 AM)
Ok, I'm locking this up.

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