RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (Full Version)

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bigmilt -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 11:49:22 PM)

Remember in the eto it was a bomber escort or ground attack plane which meant Germans could get the altitude advantage. In the
Pto it was primarily a hunter so it could use it's altitude and speed to it's advantage.



Jorm -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/16/2009 12:46:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I'd rather be "plagued" with compressibility issues, than "I can't keep up" issues...



I think I'd be quite disturbed about compressiblity...words come to my mind..like "auger" and "lawn dart" [:'(] But that's why I don't fly planes...[:D]






Yep, thus my initial query about it.
Im reading a book on the development of the P38 just now and it talks alot about a bunch of crashes due to high speed compressibility problems, ie it was mostly terminal untill they worked out what was happening and how to fix it.

In my ignorace i thought the problems were due to the specific design of the P38 and didnt realise that compressability problems occur for all aircraft at or around the speend of sound.

Haveto love this forum, you can get a real eduction from some of the posts,

i stand ready to receive the 1st WITP phD from study of the forums

[sm=character0267.gif][sm=00000436.gif]



TheElf -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/16/2009 4:27:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tondern


quote:

ORIGINAL: medicff


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

quote:

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?

I'm curious about this too.


I will third that request [;)]



I will "fourth it" and add two other altitude questions.

If you have your fighters on escort, are they most effective at EXACTLY the same altitude as the bombers, or if they fly high cover (plus several thousand feet). I don't want to learn this the hard way by losing many of my available bombers in the first two weeks.

And if you expect enemy bombers at, say 17,000, should you set CAP at exactly 17,000 or try to give them a couple of thousand feet of altitude advantage?

Thanks,
Johnny




Well since it was fourth'd...

The "merge", if you will, simply occurs at some point between the altitude of the Lower group and the higher group.

1st of all there are a lot of checks that occur prior to combat being joined, and then re-checked again through out the combat resolution. One group detects another. It is either higher, Co-Alt, or lower. If it is Co-Alt or lower it climbs. The race for initiative begins when both groups are aware of each other. Then a semi-random positioning phase begins. I say Semi because values are used from each side to determine an advantage of some kind...or not. You can use your imagination as to what Values might be important here.

Then it's time to begin. A snapshot of the two groups is taken and bonuses are drawn from that instantaneous Freeze-frame right as the first shot is fired. There is no hard and fast formula I can point to say it A is this many feet higher than B then Altitude Y will be where combat occurs.

Detection levels matter, Radar detection, Detection Range, climbrate, LDR skills, EXP, Weather, Mission type, etc.

It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the



denisonh -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/16/2009 6:59:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

(SNIP)
It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the



Don't leave us hanging Ian.....




tondern -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/16/2009 8:53:49 PM)


Detection levels matter, Radar detection, Detection Range, climbrate, LDR skills, EXP, Weather, Mission type, etc.

It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the
[/quote]


Hey Elf .. Elf? Are you all right ? (In old movies when the HERO (Elf) is cut off in mid-sentence, it is rarely a good sign.)

Complicated is good, as it's realistic. My take away is that altitude is good for "initiative," but hardly a guarantor of success.

I'm still puzzled about best altitudes for escort and CAP against bombers - but so were the actual commanders of yore. In YH vs. TS I see Allied CAP often set pretty low, around 7k. Perhaps this is a compromise altitude to intercept low and higher-level raids? YH responds with sweeps at 10k (altitude advantage?) and bombers at 15-17k.

Lots of tactical puzzles here. Excellent.

Yours,
Johnny





TheElf -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 2:14:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

(SNIP)
It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the



Don't leave us hanging Ian.....



Whups...I've slept since then...can't remember what...



TheElf -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 2:25:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tondern


quote:

Detection levels matter, Radar detection, Detection Range, climbrate, LDR skills, EXP, Weather, Mission type, etc.

It's all very complicated....[;)]


Hey Elf .. Elf? Are you all right ? (In old movies when the HERO (Elf) is cut off in mid-sentence, it is rarely a good sign.)

Complicated is good, as it's realistic. My take away is that altitude is good for "initiative," but hardly a guarantor of success.



I'm fine.[;)] I realize now that that fragment was a sentence I started and then edited out, but didn't acutally delete.

quote:

Complicated is good, as it's realistic. My take away is that altitude is good for "initiative," but hardly a guarantor of success.


Quite right. You might have the Advantage at that moment in time, but if the LDR has 40 Air Rating, a 35 AGGR rating, and the unit AVG EXP is 50 the initial bonuses drawn prior to the first shot will not be as effective, and follow on rounds will likely see a shift in momentum toward the lower group.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to represent this given the structure of the game as it was originally designed, so players might assume that initial altitude advantages are all they need to win an engagement. Not true. You need a LOT of things working for you to be decisive.

quote:

I'm still puzzled about best altitudes for escort and CAP against bombers - but so were the actual commanders of yore. In YH vs. TS I see Allied CAP often set pretty low, around 7k. Perhaps this is a compromise altitude to intercept low and higher-level raids? YH responds with sweeps at 10k (altitude advantage?) and bombers at 15-17k.


Well (and I'll give the Top Gun answer): it depends...You may be hit by two raids or more in the same phase. What altitudes will they be at? What Fighters will accompany them? What altitude is THEIR best altitude? Which tpye of raid are you most concerned with? Low fast attack bombers? Mid-alt Dive bombers? High level 4E bombers? What are you protecting? That will determine what you biggest threat is...

Ultimately the real answer is there IS NO "best" altitude. You won't ever be able to say definitively that I will ALWAYS set CAP at Altitude X. That's what I was aiming for...
quote:


Lots of tactical puzzles here. Excellent.

Yours,
Johnny


Enjoy the puzzle.



TheElf -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 2:29:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

(SNIP)
It's all very complicated....[;)]
Let's assume that we are at the point where the



Don't leave us hanging Ian.....



Hi Harvey. Back among the land of the living?



tigercub -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 3:37:36 AM)

Love your Art work that Rocks



BAR -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 4:21:13 PM)

Wouldn't the Allied Radar, when developed, be able to communicate with the CAP as to the altitude of incoming raids? Is there any modelling of communication between ground controllers and air units? I would hope that if I have a CAP around a major port or base with available Radar capability and set it's altitude to 15,000 feet but have a raid detected at 25,000 feet that my CAP just doesn't sit at 15K when they could have been climbing for the intercept.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 4:24:27 PM)

Radar absolutely impacts CAP effectiveness.



denisonh -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 5:05:00 PM)

Yup,

Back in the saddle after a rough year, although truthfully the only time I have now to browse the web is at work. Budget cycle here in the Pentagon is kinda bizarre right now.

The AE air combat model seems to be shaping up well. Congrats to the team on work well done.




m10bob -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/17/2009 6:43:04 PM)

Blunt question!![;)]


If I have a fighter CAP patrolling at 8000 ft, will they attempt to attack enemy dive bombers coming in at 17,000 feet, and if so, will they climb to meet, or hit them on the way down?

(If they will intercept, maybe it is abstract to the point we won't be told what altitude the intercept occurred?)



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