Not the 3.9.4 Patch...

Not the 3.9.4 Patch... (Full Version)

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Bucks -> Not the 3.9.4 Patch... (6/14/2009 5:25:36 AM)
There's a thread located here: http://www.harplonkhq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=437#p437 It contains the following: quote: 43. AIP Endurance same at Full and Flank speed Full speed has 343:20hrs, and Flank speed has 343:20hrs, too 44. AIP endurance shows 4% Unit display shows endurance at 4% even though it should be at 100% 45. Unable to switch off AIP Sub has a diesel engine and fuel, but is unable to utilize either when run at Periscope depth after AIP fuel is exhausted. All of these issues DID NOT exist in the game, they were the direct result of the ignorance of the DB Editor and not caused by the H3ANW code. The 3.9.4 Patch didn't resolve them, I did by pointing out where the he had gone wrong, I don't see anything approaching an apology to AGSI for making false or misleading claims... I'm sure they'd appreciate it. Cheers Darren

hermanhum -> * Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues (6/14/2009 5:32:02 AM)
Unfortunately, you are correct. They were the result of an Undocumented and unannounced feature by AGSI. Although not a issue within the game engine, they are still an issue of incomplete documentation. However, both Game engine and documentation are the sole domain of AGSI. So, it wasn't one problem, but it did lead to another and, in the end, only AGSI is able to fix it.

Bucks -> RE: Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues* (6/14/2009 5:35:00 AM)
I don't work for AGSI yet I solved it. Damn I'm an exceptional individual. [8D]

hermanhum -> * Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues (6/14/2009 5:38:54 AM)
I'm sure that everyone noticed that the List of Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues was corrected 15 minutes after the problem was reported. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for AGSI responsiveness. I'm looking for the proper and corrected documentation from AGSI. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction to find it.

Bucks -> RE: Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues* (6/14/2009 5:56:39 AM)
How was I able to correctly model these systems with the same lack of documentation? I did some work, spent several hours researching and testing, and well I worked it out. I know you like to have stuff served up on a platter, and I've helped you by doing all the work and shared it. You still want to blame others for your inability to do what I am able to. Simply reading the article in Wikipedia explained the RL design of these systems, once I knew Battery, Diesel & AIP worked together I was pretty much where I needed to be and look, "hey presto" they work... This is an example of attitudinal approach, you want the work done for you. I simply want to make things work. Second attitude means lots of WORK, you almost seem allergic to that. Darren

RedMike -> RE: Not the 3.9.4 Patch... (6/14/2009 8:00:55 PM)
Man, all you guys need are a couple of RPGs at 20 paces.

hermanhum -> Problem (6/14/2009 8:11:17 PM)
Er, I've tried to get him to do that. I've invited him away from this place to spare innocent bystanders. ( http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2139225 ) However, he prefers to continue making a spectacle of himself on Matrix. Don't think I can do much more than that.

RedMike -> RE: Problem (6/14/2009 8:16:09 PM)
You mean you got two RPGs over at harplonk ?? [X(]

hermanhum -> Problem (6/14/2009 8:18:11 PM)
Even better. We allow nukes. [:D]

Bucks -> RE: Not the 3.9.4 Patch... (6/14/2009 9:38:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMike Man, all you guys need are a couple of RPGs at 20 paces. Nah, FN-57 or the same company's P-90 using the SS190 ball round, known to defeat the target under ALL conditions. You can see a RPG, not going to see 50 rounds in 3.2 secs from my "90"... Herman's only here because Harpgamer have ditched him, if Matrix dump him as well, he'll be back to news groups, that's what a dial connection deserves though LOL. rapidly running out of allies HH, drop the attitude...

hermanhum -> Problem (6/14/2009 9:41:48 PM)
Still harassing the disinterested, I see. Come visit the SS Nostromo, where no one can hear you scream. http://www.harplonkhq.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5

Bucks -> RE: Problem (6/14/2009 9:54:00 PM)
I annoy only the disinterested, you annoy EVERYBODY

keeferon01 -> RE: Problem (6/15/2009 1:29:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: koelbach Guys, I think enough is enough. This is below soap opera level. The newbies and backcomers here - and the old warhorses, too- have deserved a higher level of discussion. Ralf I gave up watching the young and the restless , I just come here for a hour a day instead [:)]

Bucks -> RE: Problem (6/15/2009 2:14:08 PM)
Ron, As a Tarheel (Ed Ladner taught me that years back) I wouldn't have thought you'd get as low as Y & R [:)] I'll leave it be and start posting information on what's coming up in 3.10. Ralf is right, we simply don't have enough serious game related discussion here and it's turned into a mud slinging match which reflects poorly on myself. I'm sorry about everyone being caught in the crossfire, I have a vested interest in this project being part of the development process and the "list" presents me with something that I view as a personal attack on myself and those such as Russell Sharp and Dale Hillier who contribute their time to this project. It is also painful that I convinced AGSI and especially Russell to hold up further development while we worked on the 3.9.4 version of the game which was a direct attempt to remove what we'll call "game killers" from the "list". Mr Hum has been granted a status few other players have probably ever had in that, he has changed the development track of a game due to his personal efforts to highlight his "issues". I say his issues, simply because such a small % are based on other player's findings. Enough said time to get the future of ANW happening. Cheers Darren

FreekS -> RE: Problem (6/15/2009 2:42:55 PM)
Ralf, I agree, Amazing how two guys that do so much work on harpoon have so much time left to waste on this crap! And I mean both on the posts as well as on deep in depth discussions on really low priority cosmetic issues (like the AIP-subs, though Darren was right in that one) Me, I'm working on a new PDB-scen and a HUD3 remake at the same time. Just for the record, a fair number of issues on 'the list' were found and reported by me and most of the issues on 'the list'' were verified by me to the best of my ability. I think the list at the time of publication represented a reasonably accurante list of bugs. What has been missing, as neither AGSI, nor Darren nor Herman has done it is an attempt at prioritisation. A number of the bugs ARE gamekillers, and lots of effort was made to try to persuade AGSI to focus on them, but a real clear prioritization is absent. So I'd like some player/designer/coder attention to go to figuring out what are the priority issues. To me the AI not attacking unknown subs on most missions is one of them. Freek

Ron Belcher -> RE: Problem (6/15/2009 5:59:05 PM)
Sure glad we're all on the same side, none the less... [;)]

hermanhum -> Problem (6/15/2009 9:28:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bucks I have a vested interest in this project being part of the development process and the "list" presents me with something that I view as a personal attack on myself and those such as Russell Sharp and Dale Hillier who contribute their time to this project. It is also painful that I convinced AGSI and especially Russell to hold up further development while we worked on the 3.9.4 version of the game which was a direct attempt to remove what we'll call "game killers" from the "list". Mr Hum has been granted a status few other players have probably ever had in that, he has changed the development track of a game due to his personal efforts to highlight his "issues". I say his issues, simply because such a small % are based on other player's findings. There's that Attitude, again. To re-iterate, you don't represent Harpoon, AGSI, or Matrix. Desperately trying to blame the folks who identify the problems will not fix the game. Those problems exist whether or not a list exists. So long as the game continues to behave this poorly, the problems are the only things that will be discussed as all others would be pointless. If you need to consider this as a personal attack, the problem lies with you and not those who find the problems. The bugs exist and will occur whether or not anyone makes up a list or talks about them. Trying to affix blame is just ludicrous. AGSI owns the game code. Thereby, AGSI owns the bugs and are the only persons capable of fixing them. It doesn't matter who reports them, Stephen Hawking or Bill Gates. They will be around until they are fixed. Until then, there isn't much to talk about in ANW except the poor behaviours.

rsharp@advancedgamin -> RE: Problem (6/15/2009 11:18:21 PM)
Hey Freek, I hear you and I will continue to listen to the community. I think AGSI doesn't do a good job of speaking back. I prioritise the issues by the following, starting with the highest priority. 1. Crashes - CTDs, freezes, etc. 2. Blocks - User command is ignored or canceled without feedback from the game. 3. User feedback - This is the tricky one as every coin has more than one side. 4. Doctrine issues - Pretty much user issues as well though it will often be described as 'dumb' behavior. 3.10 finds these issues and makes them configurable for the user. 5. The rest. Here I've actually listed the issues I think are higher priority. http://hud3.harpoon5.com/mantis-1.1.1/roadmap_page.php -edit Just wanted to add, when I feel I've got a handle on the majority of the bugs that I choose, I often ask users, on this forum, to nominate bugs they feel are killers. I've done this a few times now. Thanks,

hermanhum -> * Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues (6/16/2009 12:52:53 PM)
I tried to select the Top 10 Known ANW issues that might be game killers, but couldn't reduce it far enough. These are the 39 most serious problems facing ANW, IMO. This list is made from the perspective of the Solitaire player. Scenario designers, Multi-player users, DB Editors, scenario Librarians, and MP server admins will likely have a different priority on problems. ASW/WH torps tracking wrong targets WH/ASW torps tracking targets they cannot hit. Missiles not releasing Missiles not releasing even though they are assigned in Weapons allocation window [Originally reported by KlubMarcus]. Submarine evades own torpedoes Submarine evades her own wake-homing torpedoes after firing. This does not occur with wire-guided torpedoes. Transit mission fails to execute Ships will plot path around NAV Zones, but Transit mission will not trigger and execute Fighters hanging on refPt Fighters will launch and hang on one Ref point. Map depths arbitrarily changed Map depths in 3.9.4 are different from depths in previous versions (Originally reported by Freek Schepers) Sonobuoy helos fail to RTB Helos will launch, lay sonobuoys and then hover when out of buoys instead of RTB for more buoys Torpedoes ignore wire-commands Torpedoes fired on Bearing-Only Launch ignore depth command changes even though linked by control wire Auto-defense shoots down own TLAM SAMs will intercept player's TLAM even though status is Weapons Tight Auto-defense squanders SAMs SAMs fire even when it is apparent that there is no possible way to intercept SSMs yet player is unable to stop wasting SAMs Afterburner unavailable at low alt Afterburner speed unavailable at low alt in MP for Rafale. No problem in Solitaire. 32000kt speed 32000kt speed appears in window when cruise or loiter button selected Mission ignores target list Targets not restricted to target list for mission. Intermittent values rejected Some intermittent values for EmCon window rejected ViCond evaluates with wrong UNIT ViCond evaluates with wrong specific UNIT identified in condition Planes jammed against Nav Zone Planes are unable to plot path around Nav Zone. Ships are unable to navigate around ice Ships are unable to navigate around ice. Group plots across ice Group plots path through ice in ANW and ships subsequently get stuck on the ice Subs go over land Subs go over island instead around it. Plotted path gets stuck Ship gets stuck on land even though a path was plotted successfully. Ground strike fails to execute Ground strike fails to execute with 3.9.4 but has no problem firing in 3.9.3 Opening 3.6.3 scen causes crash Opening this scenario in ANW causes Crash. Scenario opens and runs fine in H3.6.3 Crash from fatal mount error Crash from fatal mount error when trying to load scenario Unable to lay sonobuoy string Aircraft unable to lay sonobuoy string. No such problem in H3 (Originally reported by Jason Howell) Active sonobuoys dropped passively Sonobuoys with active-only sonar systems are dropped in passive mode even when the "Drop Active Sonobuoy" hotkey is depressed. Nuke yields minimalized 200kton Siren missile on the Charlie sub only destroys targets within half a mile and does damage up to 2 miles (5%). In 3.6 it did damage up to 15 miles (1%). By my estimation, the range of effects on ships and ground targets is down by factor ten compared to 3.6 (Originally reported by Freek Schepers) SLBM Explodes past target SLBMs will pass over target and explode. (Originally reported by Freek Schepers) Group climbs automatically The simple act of grouping planes together causes them to climb to 2001m. (Originally reported by JChiecchio) SARH detects invisible aircraft SARH/Semi-active sensor detects invisible aircraft that is undetectable under all other instances RoE error yields wrong message Violation of RoE yields message saying that it was a Good Guess instead of a message saying that the player will come before a Board of Inquiry Mount re-load never finishes Ship will attempt to re-load each of its torpedo mounts. Re-load operation will never finish. Mount never becomes ready to fire Generic strikes seek additional targets Generic strikes seek additional targets after initial target is destroyed even if secondary targets have no relation to original target. CTD changing map size CTD occurs while changing size of tactical map. CTD while drawing new map CTD while drawing new map Poor AAW missile allocation Two CAP fighters concentrate fire on a single target when there are two eligible targets. Each fighter should be engaging a separate target. SSM Altitude crash Land-based SSMs appear to crash into the surface after launch and ignore their cruise altitude. Specific strike cannot hit Specific strike mission cannot hit target unless Focused Strike is enabled Weapon never hits III Weapons that hit in 3.9.3 will never hit target in 3.9.4 CTD within 60 mins Scenario results in CTD within 60 mins of elapsed game time [EDIT] List re-ordered to loosely reflect level of severity after discussion with FS.

FreekS -> RE: Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues* (6/16/2009 2:40:17 PM)
Here is my list; very different from Hermans! Items coded xx do not have an exact match in 'The List'. I was not always 100% sure if an item had been fully fixed; but these were the ones I remembered most during either gameplay of scenario design. They represent only my own opinion! I typically rate CTD not so severe as the auto.sav function works well and CTD usually only causes a few minutes delay. Numbers refer to Hermans numbering. Freek Very serious (Makes a lot of Scenario's unplayable) xx. Unclassified subs not attacked by all AI missions (partly fixed but not for e.g. substrike, Transit, Unassigned, Plotted missions which I use a lot) xx. New ground damage model (defeats all non-100% damage vicconds, a lot of scens) xx. Ferry mission cannot go high enough anymore to operate Satellites (makes some of my favorite scens like Atlantic unplayable) 175. Map depth arbitrarily changed (reveals subs on surface in a few scens) Serious (makes a lot of scenario's too easy/hard - poorer AI or breaks a few scens) 190. Sonobuoy helo fail to RTB and fall behind formations (makes very hard for AI to defend formation) 168. Ground strike fails to execute 27&106. Protect Victory Condition 179. On station viccond fails 122. Missiles not releasing 210. Unrep not possible in MP 136. SLBM explodes past target XX. All sub mission execute at creep speed once inside patrol zone 72. torps chase improper targets 195. Torpedoes chasing dipping helo 141. Navigator plots path off the map (and generally is inefficient) 12&120. Planes Ignore Nav zones (on way into target) Irritating & Cosmetic issues 187. RoE error yields wrong message 178. Nuke yields minimised xx. Map scale off by 30%+ Very old issues (mostly worked around) 197. Torpedoes limited to cruise speed when BOL fired 1. AAA fire unlimited by altitude 184 Poor AAW missile allocation Note: order changed after detailed discussion between HH and FS

Bucks -> RE: Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues* (6/17/2009 2:51:06 PM)
quote: 190. Sonobuoy helo fail to RTB and fall behind formations (makes very hard for AI to defend formation) Freek, I wanted to suggest a check for this issue from the DB POV. This may be due to the lifetime of the buoys you've been given. If they last too long the behaviour you're reporting will occur. Herman and you might want to try out cutting down the Sonobuoy lifetime (fuel) and see if your helos drop their buoys faster. Say the formation zone was from 6nm in to 2nm or a 4nm distance for your ships to cover before each line is "replaced". You would make the lifetime of the buoys 20min based on a 12 kt speed of advance. Running the numbers is easy enough and you can decide if the results change if this can be fixed outside of the code itself. Cheers Darren

hermanhum -> * Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues (6/17/2009 6:17:15 PM)
The endurance of the buoys could be modified, but this would not solve the problem. A number of other poor side-effects would likely arise: As per your suggestion, the buoys would be limited to use in a certain size of patrol zone. i.e. ##nm from the group. Other users trying larger/smaller zones would have problems with their sonobuoys. The helos using those buoys must also use them for other functions. i.e. open ocean search or sub strike missions. If those same helos are assigned a mission other than Formation Air Patrol, then the parameters used to optimize the buoys for that function may now prove a hinderance on ASW Area patrol missions Having multiple variants of sonobuoys might be possible from a human player perspective, but is not possible for any AI control. The AI is simply unable to switch between loadouts. I can think of a number of additional problems, but haven't detailed them for the sake of brevity. While the suggestion to customize a database around specific problem(s) may be technically and theoretically possible, it is wholly infeasible from a practical perspective, IMO. This is a systemic problem requiring a systemic solution.

FreekS -> RE: Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues* (6/17/2009 11:10:31 PM)
Any other players/designers/coders want to give input into priority issues ? Bucks? Others? Of course the decision if/which decision to tackle remains wholly with AGSI and noone else, but they have indicated several times that the appreciate input. Freek

Bucks -> RE: Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues* (6/17/2009 11:51:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreekS Any other players/designers/coders want to give input into priority issues ? Bucks? Others? Of course the decision if/which decision to tackle remains wholly with AGSI and noone else, but they have indicated several times that the appreciate input. Freek Freek, That's all I'm looking for (input) and a way we can all look at the factors involved and see what's available to address the issues. I'm about to start getting busy with some things I MUST take care of today and once I'm home later I'll work through your lists and make some comments of my own. I have a small list of requests I've made and I'd like some feedback in that direction as well. I'll prioritise Herman's list of issues above and make sure I confirm them first and then feed 'em through to Russell to see what he can do to clear them in the next couple of 3.10 Betas maybe... Thanks for your time Freek and Herman Darren

FreekS -> RE: Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues* (7/2/2009 12:06:52 PM)
Interesting and disappointing that not more players/designers/DB managers want to help prioritize the issues. Maybe that menas nobody is bothered by any of the issues, maybe it means most of you have already given up. Freek

hermanhum -> * Known Harpoon [ANW] Issues (7/2/2009 3:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreekS Interesting and disappointing that not more players/designers/DB managers want to help prioritize the issues. Maybe that means nobody is bothered by any of the issues, maybe it means most of you have already given up. Freek It sounds like you've asked and answered your own question at the same time. [:D] As posted on June 8, 2009: quote: ORIGINAL: hermanhum The List of Known ANW Issues has already been posted. I believe that the proverbial ball is in your court, now. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2134600 AGSI will either address them or continue their current policy of trying to ignore them. Since some of the problems have been around for over 3 years, I don't hold much faith in them ever being fixed.

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