Just in case...

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JudgeDredd -> Just in case... (6/19/2009 9:46:10 PM)
I know alot here are against Steam and even more are against Empire Total War...but just a heads up that Steam has it for Ł14:99 and the Special Forces edition (yeah right) for Ł17.99. Like I said, I know both are a no no for many, but it didn't seem fair not passing on that info [8D]

vonRocko -> RE: Just in case... (6/19/2009 9:57:17 PM)
As long as steam is involved, I wouldn't take it if it was free![:'(]

V22 Osprey -> RE: Just in case... (6/19/2009 9:59:34 PM)
No thanks, you can get the boxed copy for $26 at NWS.I would rather have a physical copy than a download.

Hertston -> RE: Just in case... (6/19/2009 10:13:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey No thanks, you can get the boxed copy for $26 at NWS.I would rather have a physical copy than a download. Makes little difference in this case. Physical copies can only be activated through Steam, anyway.

Terminus -> RE: Just in case... (6/19/2009 10:39:19 PM)
And once you do, you can turn Steam off again.

leastonh1 -> RE: Just in case... (6/19/2009 11:50:36 PM)
As tempting as price drops are, I'm with vonRocko. Even being able to turn off Steam defeats the object to me, it has to be there in the first place or you can't activate/patch games. I won't have it on any of my PC's again, end of story.

pasternakski -> RE: Just in case... (6/19/2009 11:56:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim_H As tempting as price drops are, I'm with vonRocko. Even being able to turn off Steam defeats the object to me, it has to be there in the first place or you can't activate/patch games. I won't have it on any of my PC's again, end of story. Count me in, too, Jim.

V22 Osprey -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 12:09:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hertston quote: ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey No thanks, you can get the boxed copy for $26 at NWS.I would rather have a physical copy than a download. Makes little difference in this case. Physical copies can only be activated through Steam, anyway. Yea, but my point was that I would rather have physical copy.I like having the actual CD, so just in case my hard drive breaks in half I still have the game. Dont get what is so bad about Steam.Steam is actully pretty cool, much better than Games for Windows Live.Sure, its not perfect but it's a great concept. Did I mention its way better than Games for Windows Live?[:D]

leastonh1 -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 12:22:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey Yea, but my point was that I would rather have physical copy.I like having the actual CD, so just in case my hard drive breaks in half I still have the game. Dont get what is so bad about Steam.Steam is actully pretty cool, much better than Games for Windows Live.Sure, its not perfect but it's a great concept. Did I mention its way better than Games for Windows Live?[:D] Why didn't you mention Windows Live? For goodness sake! [:'(] If it's by Microsoft, it'll be buggy, bloaty and broken. I'm a huge fan of Redmond, can you tell? I bought a physical copy of Orange Box exactly for the reasons given in this thread. To have the disc for future fubars with my pooter and to avoid having to rely on Steam. One out of two ain't bad! I could give it away and gladly would, but as the serial numbers are forever tied to my now defunct Steam account, it would be pointless.

killroyishere -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 1:53:43 AM)
The reason I don't like digital downloads only is because all of this is pretty new. We've seen some of our favorite game publishers and developers disappear over the 20+ or so years we've been involved in computer gaming and of course don't get much in the way of support of those older games. Except maybe through this GOG.com Who's to say these direct download sites won't go bellyup in a few years or so? I just don't like taking that chance. Direct download doesn't bother me as much as will they be here 20 years from now? And don't go saying we won't be playing the same games 20 years from now. I sure am. I play a lot of games from the 80's still when I can find them for the PC I have. DOSBOX has brought back a lot of playing old games from the 80's and early 90's as well. For now I will only direct download if I can get a physical copy also like through Matrixgames. Or if the price is so bargain basement I'm not worried if I lose it in 20 years. Like SotS complete (except for the very last expansion) was on sale at Gamersgate for $7.99 last weekend. I have GalCiv 2 and think it's the best 4x around but I went ahead and downloaded it because it was cheap. When someday we can get a guarantee in EULA or writing or something that if a direct download site goes belly up that we will get all our games forever activated through some download then I might think seriously about it. But, even then companies can make promises and still not live up to them. So, it's still a risky deal if you get all your games from direct download and then one day find out where you got them from is gone and you can never get them again.

sapper_astro -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 7:33:43 AM)
As much as I would like this game, I refuse to buy it with the online activation and bloatware. If they bring out a copy that has a CD key, then I will buy it. For the rest of my reason, read killroy's post above.

leastonh1 -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 9:34:45 AM)
I'm all for direct downloads, it's a good use of the technology available and gives us instant access. There's probably a green argument there too. Having said that, the Matrix idea of also supplying the physical copy if required gives us the best of both worlds. I do like to have the DVD case and manual on my shelf as much as a burned CD copy of a digitally downloaded version. My only objection is as killroyishere said; if the digital download is the only option complete with online activation, what does the customer do if or when that company is no longer there? It's a seriously flawed model which only favours the vendor and ultimately penalises the honest buyer. Why people put up with it is beyond me.

Lützow -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 10:48:29 AM)
Aside from the glitz E:TW isn't any good. A highly polished game with ill-conceived mechanics for casual strategists. Somebody familiar with Matrix and Paradox titles will hardly find a challenge there. I was stupid enough to purchase this game right after release, figured out how to beat it in a day or two, and completely lost interest afterwards. So better save your money, not even due to the Steam issue, but ET:W simply isn't worth it.

Hertston -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 11:11:48 AM)
I didn't think it was THAT bad! That said, though, anyone with an interest in this style of game who can live with reduced eye-candy would much better off with the superb Takeda 3, for a only few quid more.

sapper_astro -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 3:32:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hertston I didn't think it was THAT bad! That said, though, anyone with an interest in this style of game who can live with reduced eye-candy would much better off with the superb Takeda 3, for a only few quid more. How is the combat mechanics in this one? I played the ancients game they brought out a few years ago, and the UI was terrible. If you compared T3 with MTW1 how does it stack up across the board? http://ezgame.com/SNH2/index.html Interesting, number 2 for S&H. If T3 is any good, I guess this one will be too.

V22 Osprey -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 10:41:47 PM)
I dont like Digital Download, because while you are downloading something could get corrupted or something like that, or the power could go out while downloading.Also like I said above I dont have to rely on my hard drive to keep my games as what would I do if the hard drive broke in half?And what if Matrix isnt around anymore so I can't re-download the game?With a physical copy all I dont have to worry about that. Now about Empire total war.I was kind of disappointed that a US regular is equal to a British regular.Seriously, all they did was take one guy and gave him different uniforms for each nation.There is something wrong when US Militia is able to take on British Regualars in an open field.Another thing that pissed me off from gameplay vids was the fact the the Native Americans were fighting like europeans and I didnt see any tactics that Native Americans would have actually used.There is something wrong when Native American archers get into a line formation right in front of Militiamen like they are europeans or something.

pasternakski -> RE: Just in case... (6/20/2009 11:38:38 PM)
I don't understand some of you guys. Digital download is the greatest (for me, anyway). It's cheaper. When you've got an executable that works, you burn it to a CD (along with your registration info). Patches and expansions you save up until you've got enough for various games that you can burn them to another CD. You inventory and index everything so that you can find it all later. Manuals? I LOVE electronic manuals. You can edit them, rearrange things, add stuff, rewrite crap writing (and there's plenty of that in computer game manuals, just take an intelligent gander at the horror story that is the sample from the Witp-AE manual, sorry bloated mess that it is gonna be). I HATE printed manuals. They're like beautiful women - so vain, all you can do is sit and look at 'em, because they think they're too good for ya to touch 'em.

madgamer2 -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 12:33:43 AM)
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.......Just go on and use steam and one day that other shoe will drop right on your brain. Just don't say the folks here who have many years of game playing and support game companies did not warn you. Never mind guys some just have to learn the hard way....and it hurts a lot when it happens. Madgamer

madgamer2 -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 12:48:17 AM)
I wanted to get a copy of the new Koei game ROTK 11 but it wqs only available through two down load sites in the USA. I am no fan od direct2drive so I tried the other one. Well had to reinstall die to HDD problems and they could not find my purchase info that I could find on there own website. They finally said conformation and a new license key were sent, which I never got but did get a refund. With a reluctant heart I tried direct2drive and the same thing. so I had a friend on a newsgroup I am in who lived in the UK buy it at Amazon,uk and I sent him uS$$$ plus a $15 wire transfer fee and he sent it to me. disk, manual and case all for $50 USD including shipping) and now I have the disk and manual which is great. So for me add me to the list of no go for download only. Madgamer

madgamer2 -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 12:58:20 AM)
UH.......while your doing all this stuff I assume you find time to play LOL. Like all issues there are two sides and I feel that I should not have to go through all that for a download only game. I also know that it did me no good when I bought ROTK 11 because they never could get the new activation key to me to me. Recording the activation key in some downloads does no good because you have to get a new one every time you reinstall. Nobody forces us to buy by a particular method we choose it ourselves so you play the song your way and I will play iot mine. Madgamer

pasternakski -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 1:05:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: madgamer UH.......while your doing all this stuff I assume you find time to play LOL. Like all issues there are two sides and I feel that I should not have to go through all that for a download only game. Fellow Hawkeye-type dude. Burning a CD takes only a couple of minutes, then you have it 'til death do us part. And I inventory and index all my electronic stuff. If you don't you're gonna waste more time finding things than you spent on record keeping. I just enjoy being organized and knowing not only what I've got, but also, where it is. quote: Recording the activation key in some downloads does no good because you have to get a new one every time you reinstall. Then they ain't selling their junk to me. quote: Nobody forces us to buy by a particular method we choose it ourselves so you play the song your way and I will play iot mine. Madgamer But I'm such a better musician than you are...

madgamer2 -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 1:27:52 AM)
I am not sure how you found out I was even a musician but after out trio's performance today at a outdoor gig I would have to say that just about EVERYONE was better than me LOL/ Madgamer

JudgeDredd -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 9:08:43 AM)
Past I understand your point that digital manuals give you the freedom to do as you please...but it's all I can do to muster the time to get any wargaming time at all, nevermind reading a manual and completely forget all that editing/annotating/rewriting malarky. No - I like a nice printed manual. Sure they become out of date, but I spend all day looking at a computer screen at work, reading/writing and rewriting code - I really, really do not want to come home and read on the screen. Which is why Matrix has it down pat - best of both worlds. If I want a digital download because I think the manual isn't required (Close Combat The Longest Day), then I do digital download. Sure the manual has useful stuff in it, but 50 - 100 pages I can do on a computer screen. Crown of Glory Emperors Edition - wanted a manual so bought the physical and digital. Nice physical manual to read (although I do wish Matrix would go the 3 colour route again). In other words, I make my purchase based on the item. If I don't think the manual will offer much, I do DD. If I think the manual is a must have to play the game, I do physical. Thank you Matrix Games for giving me that flexibility. And now, for more advertising, head on over to...[:'(]

Charles2222 -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 2:11:00 PM)
JD: I certainly understand the want for a physical manual, as it at least offers something you can chew on for those times without a computer. OTOH, I have the feeling you do not realize the full potential of the computer method. For pdf's, there are two search buttons. From what I remember, the one you really want is the one that is more obscure and was in the top-right portion of the screen. So let's say you want to look at supply. You type that word in and it pulls up every instance of the word in a list, along with some immediate text surrounding the word. What this does is make it very easy to distinguish one portion of supply data from another, without having to go to every link to find out, then, of course, when you have discovered which one you want you simply click on the link and there you are in the manual. It beats the snot out of reading a manual as far as I'm concerned, since I don't have to worry about some sub-clause somewhere where my real answer may be wanted and end up missing it. The only fear may be if what you're looking for is called something else and therefore one has to use more imagination on the word searched. I say all of this having something of a fear of reading manuals though the computer myself, but with the speed and ease of doing these sort of searches it's less a burden and more of a pleasure; at least compared to spending 30 minutes or more at a time trying to find some sentence or two placed in some obscure portion of a printed manual. If you haven't tried this particular search function I have spoke of, give it a whirl sometime and like me you may be pleasantly surprised; just don't go reading the pdf all at one time like you would a book though[X(]. As far as pdf's being updateable, well that's all they are, as I've still to this day yet to find anybody who has updates one for the player (you must recall how this was a selling point of virtually all companies getting rid of printed manuals).

Greybriar -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 2:48:08 PM)
Nothing can replace a printed paper manual. If my computer is down, I can still read it. If my electricity goes off, I can read it by candlelight. I can take a paper manual with me anywhere I go and don't have to plug it in or buy batteries for it. On the other hand, .pdf manuals are nice, too. There are many advantages to them as Charles pointed out. But it takes a lot of ink to print out a lengthy .pdf manual and even if I were to go to the expense of printing one, the result isn't nearly as attractive as a manual made by a professional printer. To have the best of both worlds, what I do with games I really like is to buy the initial release (most of them come with a printed paper manual; at least they used to). A few years down the road after all the expansions have been added and/or all the patches have been applied, I buy the compilation pack or the Gold Edition--whichever is appropriate--that has the .pdf manual on disk.

pasternakski -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 2:55:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Charles_22 As far as pdf's being updateable, well that's all they are, as I've still to this day yet to find anybody who has updates one for the player (you must recall how this was a selling point of virtually all companies getting rid of printed manuals). Well, Charles, I have the luxury of owning Adobe Acrobat, which allows you full access to, and control over, PDFs. You can insert your own illustrations (screenshots and the like) rearrange things, edit for sense, and, above all, CONDENSE. As an editor of over three decades experience, I can tell you that it is a rare wargame manual, indeed, that is not vastly improved by ripping out and discarding about half of it. For me, it's all part of learning and enjoying games. The manual I put together for WitP is almost completely original. It contains, for example, a lot of material gleaned from the postings of many of the highly experienced WitP maniacs around here. One other thing that's really nice is the ability to link with other archived documents, so that you can immediately access more detailed information from secondary sources that you have created and tucked away on your hard drive, external drive, memory stick, CD, or what have you. As far as "all this" turning into a full-time job, I guess I don't mind spending a little time at it because it helps so much in the learning and analyzing process. First turn for the Japanese in a new WitP PBEM game taking too long? Shoot, I've got eight or ten saved that have served me well in the past. I just fire up the game, open my archive, select the start I want, and enter the orders. Takes maybe 10 minutes. You see, there is some time-saving method in my madness after all, JD... Can't wait to rip that nasty AE manual to shreds ... maybe I'll just toss it and start fresh ...

pasternakski -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 4:09:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: madgamer I am not sure how you found out I was even a musician but after out trio's performance today at a outdoor gig I would have to say that just about EVERYONE was better than me LOL/ Madgamer When you're good, it usually stays in the club, but when you're bad, the stink travels a long, long way.

pasternakski -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 4:19:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greybriar Nothing can replace a printed paper manual. If my computer is down, I can still read it. If my electricity goes off, I can read it by candlelight. I can take a paper manual with me anywhere I go and don't have to plug it in or buy batteries for it. One of the many reasons I prefer my method (and it is, of course, merely a matter of taste, and I'm not here to criticize or demean anybody's lousy sense of taste...). When I've got it the way I want it, I can publish myself a printed copy and enjoy my handiwork. And be careful reading those 300 page manuals by candlelight there, Honest Abe, you'll be blind as a bat before long. quote: On the other hand, .pdf manuals are nice, too. There are many advantages to them as Charles pointed out. But it takes a lot of ink to print out a lengthy .pdf manual Great fallacy of our age. If you're gonna squeeze pennies by continuing to buy the ancient technology that is a desktop printer with ink cartridges in it instead of a good laserjet, I can't help you. Mine has paid for itself many times over in the savings from ink cartridges (color printing costs me about 6-7 cents per page, including paper). quote: ... and even if I were to go to the expense of printing one, the result isn't nearly as attractive as a manual made by a professional printer. Bah. It doesn't take much these days to turn yourself into a top-notch desktop publisher. Print shops, in my experience, are notoriously unimaginative and just plain lousy in terms of quality and reliability. quote: To have the best of both worlds, what I do with games I really like is to buy the initial release (most of them come with a printed paper manual; at least they used to). Isn't it wonderful how the information age put an end to that huge, gluttonous need for paper copies of everything? Maybe in the 22nd century...

Greybriar -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 4:31:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasternakski ....I'm not here to criticize or demean anybody's lousy sense of taste.... That reminded me of the guy who asked, "Do you still beat your wife?"

pasternakski -> RE: Just in case... (6/21/2009 5:09:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greybriar quote: ORIGINAL: pasternakski ....I'm not here to criticize or demean anybody's lousy sense of taste.... That reminded me of the guy who asked, "Do you still beat your wife?" Thanks for being a good sport and putting up with my tasteless attempt at humor. And I know I get a little too wound up in the editorial and desktop publishing thing. My dear wife, in one of her rare moments, called me the most anal retentive SOB she ever met. We had a strange and wonderful relationship. She was strange. I was wonderful.

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