Mines and the gamey AI (Full Version)

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von Murrin -> Mines and the gamey AI (5/30/2002 12:39:01 PM)

This is for all you people who think that the AI can't handle mines.

In my current game, the date is Feb43 and I had just sent a rather large invasion fleet to Shortland I. (I'm playing American).

Well, I didn't know what might be there aside from the troops, so I sent 2 MSW or DMS with each of my 5 TF's. Ok, decent plan, no problem, right? Wrong! When my TF's reached Shortland, I had to sit through about 30+ mine strikes on my AP's. :eek:

They got less each turn, and my minesweepers took care of the majority, but the only time I've ever seen results like that was when I once mined Lunga about 25 times, so I have to assume that's precisely what the AI did. :)

Anyway, this game has been brought to a screeching halt and resulting stalemate by the loss of 25 (no, you read that right) AP's. As I have over 14k points and the AI is just shy of 7k, I think I'll start a new game. I can imagine spending 10 months just trying to sink things and barely keep my bases supplied.

Who said the AI can't handle mines?

**** gamey AI... :p :D



pad152 -> (5/30/2002 12:47:18 PM)

I setup a mine field running in a line south east of Port Morsby, the first time a Jap TF ran into to it (1 DD, 1 CA hit) The second Jap TF went around the mine field to get to the port, the AI is full of suprises.



mogami -> WOW (5/30/2002 1:36:27 PM)

Hi, duh why have I never placed mines in a hex more then once?
I still have enemy ships hit them (and I mainly place them to keep the enemy from moving through hexes, never actually expecting to anything ) If you place 2 mines in a hex and a ship hits one does that mean there is only 1 left? (some of my ML's carry 75 mines-do they place all of them (I guess I will lay some and then look at ammo remaining)



von Murrin -> (5/30/2002 1:40:32 PM)

I believe that any ship or sub tasked with laying mines will dump them all. If that is indeed the case, the uberfield I laid at lunga likely had over 2000 mines in it! :p



Ron Saueracker -> Whole invasion fleet wiped out? (5/30/2002 1:51:59 PM)

Sounds ridiculous. MSW go in and clear routes into and create safe deployment areas. They go in FIRST. Why have them if they don't work? This will have to be toned down, or Normandy would have been a graveyard, with only bodies hitting the beaches. How many mines did Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen and their host of escorts and MSWs hit when "dashing" through the English Channel in 1942, the most heavily mined area during WW2? I think Scharnhorst hit one and Gneisenau hit two (I'll confirm if need be).

I'm beginning to think the mine issue is going to be bothersome for me...rates right up there with PT boats sinking Jap DDs with 20mm AA fire and turning away Jap BB bombardment TFs, something I believe the boys at Matrix fixed by the way.



von Murrin -> (5/30/2002 2:08:22 PM)

Ron,

I watched the Jap minelayers go in and out for 7 months! I thought they were using Shortland as a stop for fuel before moving on th Gili (they own that). I think they were laying mines in Shortland that whole time, because I found none at Gili.

If I can get well over 2,000 mines into Lunga in less than 3 months, I don't even want to know how many were at Shortland. Besides, 8 MSW's cleaned them all up in 7 days.

Edit: Laying mines that dense guarantees they will exist nowhere else outside that hex. A pretty acceptable trade off, IMO.



Hartmann -> (5/30/2002 2:29:34 PM)

IŽll ad my story. :) When I invaded PM, I encountered one mine hex to the SW which I cleared. Recently, I surprisingly spotted an allied sub in that same hex, and when I sent some DDs to hunt it down, one of them ran into a newly laid mine! Can you imagine? The AI laid a mine just under my door mat!:mad: :)

Hartmann



von Murrin -> (5/30/2002 2:38:17 PM)

LOL Hartmann.

That's like having a dog poop on your welcome mat. :D



Hartmann -> (5/30/2002 2:42:42 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by von Murrin
[B]LOL Hartmann.

That's like having a dog poop on your welcome mat. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly ... and they will pay for this impudence, oh how they will pay! :mad:

I love that game. :)

Hartmann



von Murrin -> A couple of points about my story... (5/30/2002 3:07:17 PM)

...because it might seem really rediculous without the information I have as the player.

1. Only ships moving into or in the hex took hits. In those TF's, the DD's always took them first.

2. They work like coastal guns in the sense that AP's milling around offloading troops got a [I]lot[/I] of hits. There wasn't a thing I could do about this as they were one hex away the turn before they moved in to unload. By then I felt it was more important to offload all my troops (4 divs) so the ones on the beach wouldn't get wiped out. This took 3 days.

3. A supply carrying TF never hit a mine and offloaded all 29k supplies. It works like this for CD batteries, too. They only fire at ships with troops.

4. Only one ship actually sank in the hex; a DD. The others mostly made it back to port before they gave up the ghost. Lunga is a poor port for repairs at level 2.

5. All the ships that sank took 3 or more hits.



Ron Saueracker -> So...... (5/30/2002 7:38:45 PM)

You are looking at approx 75 mine strikes? Wow! Makes you wonder why mines were not more strategically important and successful as anti shipping weapons. Can you imagine how stupid guys like Erich Topp and Ed Beach must feel if they were to play UV and realised that instead of relentlessly attacking convoys with torpedoes and gunfire (and imperilling the lives of themselves and their crews) all they had to do was drop some mines somewhere and go home, relax and have a few brewskies, and go out and do it all over again? Doenitz would start turning in his grave. Nimitz would start haunting his museum in Texas. Yamamoto's serene afterlife would be revoked due to gross negligence and disservice to the Emperor, having not seen the obvious. Oh......the shame to have been so blind and myopic to the righteousness of the ultimate naval weapon of WW2, the static mine.;)



juliet7bravo -> (5/30/2002 9:16:15 PM)

The mines aren't that bad Ron, and actually work pretty historical. The potential for abuse is most definitely there for humans, but the AI doesn't abuse it. Some of the Japanese bases have (apparently huuuuge) pre-laid mine fields, which is historical and sensible. With some work and effort you can clear them before sending in the transports...without any "pre-invasion" harbor clearing it can be a real bloodbath though.

In a way, the minefields in Shortlands/Rabaul seems to help add some realism/game balance against the AI, as you can't just steam in and dump troops, or run bombardment TF's in at will. Requires a two stage attack, first run is to suppress the airfields/surface TF's enough to run the sweepers in to clear the base fields. Means as the Allies you have to have kept almost all your initial carriers (and sank the enemy), AO's, and DMS's afloat to be able to really press home serious attacks in the end of '42/early '43.

Sub mines placed in enemy areas are mostly just cool/harrassement...you rarely sink anything big, and as soon as they find them they send in the sweepers. Transit time for the subs keeps this from being a huge factor, as well as the fact that mines work best in shallow water...where the subs are much easier to kill, and used most of their torpedo loadout to carry the mines.



Ron Saueracker -> (5/30/2002 9:31:53 PM)

Guess I'll find out soon enough. My copies are a few hours away. Yippeeeeeeeee!!:)



Hartmann -> (5/31/2002 1:07:20 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]Guess I'll find out soon enough. My copies are a few hours away. Yippeeeeeeeee!!:) [/B][/QUOTE]

Finally! The wait must have been agonizing. Now have fun, you've earned it. :)

Hartmann

Btw I like the minewarfare very much. I think abuse should definitely be handled, though. How about just limiting the number of times you can mine a hex to *1*?



brisd -> my mining experience (5/31/2002 1:45:16 AM)

In my campaign as the Japanese I mined the approaches to Guadalcanal, which was then controlled by the allies (since been liberated and part of the ever growing Japanese Empire). The USN attempted to reinforce Lunga and a number of his ships hit mines, only a few multiple hits but still satisfying :D . Looking at the sunk ship list I see only a few submarines and lighter craft sunk by mines.

I got carried away and had some lone ML's mining the sea closer to the allied bases and the North Carolina and company caught two of them in a daylight surface action. It was not pretty, 16" salvos hitting the minelayers. However, as it turned out, I had a carrier TF within a days reach and the NC did not make it back safely to her base.

The AI has been using submarines to mine Truk Harbor and the approaches to Rabaul and PM. I have been fortunate to locate them with my minesweepers and remove them before suffering a single hit. :p



von Murrin -> (5/31/2002 3:18:24 AM)

Hartmann has another good idea. ;) :)

brisd and Ron,

Invasion TF's or TF's just ferrying troops get absolutely plastered by mines. Aside from that little incident, I've never had a ship get hit (my own, that is).



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