Captured equipment - How is it handled? (Full Version)

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thackaray -> Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 1:18:01 PM)

In real life, both the Germans and Russians used captured equipment on their former owners, as long as they had the correct supplies, eg shells for 88mm artillery.

This leads to several areas of how will the game use captured equipment, if at all?

1) Will the game use captured tanks as chassis' for self-propelled guns?

2) Will the game use captured guns and re-rifle them, so that their own shells could use that captured artillery piece?

3) Will you be able to use captured supply depot stores, for own use, e.g. fuel/food to keep fighting efficiency high?

I assume the game use supply levels that drop off, further a unit is away from a rail line/supply route. In WIR, you could air-supply out of supply units, but depending on house rules, the unit either had to fight back to it's own lines, or hold out against enemy attacks until their own side could relieve them.

If the following situation arises in WitE, where a Panzer unit, captures a Russian supply depot, but is deep behind enemy lines and not close to a rail hex to supply it. Would a player have to use air-supply, or does the game abstractly use captured supplies to supply a unit, if this situation occured ?



Helpless -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 2:12:15 PM)

Some of your question can't be answered because many things are still in the "process"

And yes, you can supply your encircled divisions by airdrops/airlifts.



Joel Billings -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 4:00:54 PM)

Captured equipment can be used to equip your units. I'm not sure what Gary is doing with captured supplies/ammo/fuel in units or the supply dumps in HQ's. I'll have to ask him if he's letting units use a portion of the captured items.



runyan99 -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 5:02:55 PM)

I find it curious that gamers are often so fascinated by captured equipment, even though in the theatre level game like this, the numbers of captured tanks and guns actually in use will always be de minumus.



mavraamides -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 6:28:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: runyan99

I find it curious that gamers are often so fascinated by captured equipment, even though in the theatre level game like this, the numbers of captured tanks and guns actually in use will always be de minumus.



I agree. In a tactical level game (CCIII for example) a captured T34 by the Germans early in the campaign could be game changer. But on this level, it seems to me it would be noise.

OTOH, captured supply seems to make sense even if you could only use a percentage.



fairplay -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 6:41:19 PM)

In beginning of march 44 Germany had in it´s arsenal altogether 17589 pieces of artillery. 8337 of those were of foreign origin. 47% is definitely not "de minums". At least for the German side usage of captured equipment was essential as own production capacities were absolutely insuficcient.
Attached is the equipment of the Ostfront-Divisons at the start of that campaign. Only divisions with a long black bar are fully equipped with German materiel. A smaller bar means reduced equipment, grey colours indicate at least partial equipment with captured stuff: norwegian guns, french trucks, french anti-tank artillery etc.



fairplay -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 6:42:05 PM)

here the second image...




runyan99 -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/1/2009 10:40:55 PM)

I don't see how French guns are relevant. Anything not captured on the East Front might as well be German for the game in question. What about Soviet guns?



Fred98 -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/2/2009 12:42:32 AM)

If food, boots and socks are captured, they can be handed out to those in need.

If weapons or ammunition are captured, any kind of weapon or ammunition, they are bundled up and sent to the rear.

Then they need to be cleaned and checked for damage.

There is no point if one man in a platoon has a captured enemy weapon and everybody else has the standard issue weapon because the ammo will not match!

Instead, the weapon would have to be issued in large numbers to one unit and then the ammo can be supplied to that unit.

If you have 500 artillery pieces in a line, and 50 of them have been captured from the enemy, those 50 need to be positioned near to each other for easy ammo supply.

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fairplay -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/2/2009 12:42:46 AM)

They are relevant as the opening statement was that captured weapon systems were insignificant for a strategic level game. The Wehrmacht used captured equipment to a large extent because of the lack of own equipment and because sometimes captured equipment was better than German equipment. An excellent example is the Russian 7.62 cm cannon which was the best German anti-tak gun (apart from 8.8 cm FLAK) ´til the introduction of the 7.5 cm PAK. Therefore that captured gun was widely used. Germany even produced ammunition to keep this weapon system in service.
The example of french weapons show the necessety and willingness to press foreign weapons into service.
To answer your question concerning russian weapons:
In December 1942 Germany had in frontline service:

709 12.2 cm light field howitzer 388 (r)
357 12.2 cm cannon 390 (r)
580 12.2 cm light field howitzer 396 (r)
801 15.2 heavy field howitzer 433 (r)

(source: Fritz Hahn, Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945, Volume 2 page 230)
Next to increasing numbers of weapon systems the captured ammunition for those weapons was closing the production gap of the German ammunition production. From winter 1941 onwards the army was suffering ammunition shortages that got worse the longer the war lasted.
Apart from weapons you must not forget the large number of captures horse drawn carts and horses. These horses were little ugly creatures but very robust and could withstand the Russian winter. Due to a lack of trucks and and especially fuel these horses and carts were providing mobility.

Finally in June 1944 the responsible officer, General Köstring, reported to Himmler that 100.000 (mostly captured) Russian were serving in the German navy and airforce, 800.000 in the army.





Hexagon -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/2/2009 10:36:08 AM)

Well, captured equipment for me is divided in 2 categories, first heavy as tanks, artillery, planes.... these need integrated in army OOB (adapt to own material as add radios to T-34, change the 75mm canon to Stug for 76mm...) the second is light as infantry weapons, soviets use Panzerfaust, dont need adapt them, only a little training and they can use them.

Supplies... well, not all supplies can be used by enemy, ammunition and other are especific, if the unit has captured material can use more carputed supplies if not a % can be destroyed.

The game has a great look, expects it have a good way [:D]



PyleDriver -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/2/2009 6:43:11 PM)

I've tested into 1942 many times and captured armor and artillery is allocated to units on both sides. I'll tell you this is Gary at his best, agian, how does this guy do it...I will add that Joel is great also, and we have a very fine tester team.



Capt Cliff -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/2/2009 6:51:14 PM)

Early Marders I believed used capture 76.2 MM AT guns captured in the initial invasion.



paullus99 -> RE: Captured equipment - How is it handled? (7/2/2009 7:08:32 PM)

Correct, the main difference between the Marder II & III was whether or not they used a captured 76.2mm gun vs. the German 75mm.



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