What happened to my invasion fleet?!? (Full Version)

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glen55 -> What happened to my invasion fleet?!? (6/1/2002 12:15:54 PM)

OK, this has happened three times now. The first time I thought there was an attack and I missed it. The second time I was suspicious. The third time I watched it like I hawk.

My humongo invasion task force landing the entire First Marine Division at Lunga got severely creamed without the game ever telling me! WTF? The 3rd time, I had a large surface task force in the same hex covering it + long-range CAP from all 6 carriers! And it still got massacred without me even hearing about it!

What's going on? Shore batteries?!? NO WAY the Japanese are going to get that kind of shore batteries up by September 1942! And is my battleship group--which was still cherry after all this--supposed to just sit there and grin about it while the shore batteries rip my invasion fleet to shreds?!?

Oh--and another question--how come my carrier fleet sat there for 3 days in decent weather with orders to ground attack Lunga and didn't fly a single sortie?

Sorry to be so cranky in my first message. This is a great game, except for this problem, and I have played plenty of Gary Grigsby games all the way back to Guadalcanal Campaign for the Apple IIe and they are always reliable, but you can't just shred my huge fleet to pieces WITHOUT EVEN TELLING ME! I don't know what's going on, I don't know what to do about it, and I don't feel like I can go on with the game.

Again, my apologies for being so whiny. Maybe I'm just being stupid and missed something obvious in the manual or something, but I don't like reading off the screen, don't have a printer hooked up, and wasn't able to print it at Kinko's, so I don't feel too guilty about that either.

Can somebody help me? I was having a blast with this game up until I get to this point.



von Murrin -> (6/1/2002 2:09:51 PM)

Heh, I understand. Believe you me, I was NOT a happy man the first time my AP's got whomped on by CD batteries.

Here's how it works (or seems to at any rate :)):

CD batteries fire in every surface phase. I think the get at least two shots. When they fire, you'll hear the exact same sound that you get when your ships fire in a surface engagement. They do [I]not[/I] fire at anything but transports carrying [I]troops[/I] and bombardment TF's. So if you unload troops on an adjacent beach and march them to the target, you can safely send a convoy to unload on the target hex if it has supplies [I]only[/I].

In short, when invading a base with CD batteries, BTF's and troop-laden TTF's are a bad thing to have in the base hex itself.



glen55 -> Thanks for replying (6/1/2002 2:19:31 PM)

So I have to land my Marines somewhere ELSE on Guadalcanal with no supplies and march them overland with no trail? Yuk!

Seems like with a battleship, 8 cruisers, and a big grunch of destroyers in my surface group I should be able to duel with the shore batteries and take them right out. Dueling with shore batteries should not be the same type of bombardment as shooting up troops. After all the troops are somewhere inland in fox holes basically invisible to my ships, but the shore batteries are right there spitting fire--or else they're not spitting fire, in which case they're not hurting my transports, either.

This seems like something for a patch. A surface group covering the transport group should be able to duel the shore batteries.



Hartmann -> (6/1/2002 2:39:04 PM)

Probably the shore bombardment groups should do damage to the CDs (maybe they actually do?) Anyway, there´s another really simple reason to unload at a nearby beach instead of at the goal hex. If you unload at the goal hex, you will likely be shock attacked by the garrison while you unload (and still have few troops ashore). This can wipe out your entire force piecemeal.

Hartmann



von Murrin -> (6/1/2002 2:45:43 PM)

Well, if you think about it, it actually simulates an opposed landing rather well. It also forces players to adopt the tactics that were really used. One of the reasons the Japanese never tried for a landing closer to Henderson was the [I]possibility[/I] that the Americans had installed coastal defense weapons. Currently, the only places where it can cause problems are the one-hex islands.

All in all, it's well balanced, because you can literally dock your entire fleet offshore as long as they're not landing troops or bombarding. The ability to offload supplies in safety also very handily simulates the clearing of a beach for resupply purposes.

Matter of opinion and all, but it really isn't as bad as it seems. :)



von Murrin -> (6/1/2002 2:47:04 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hartmann
[B]Probably the shore bombardment groups should do damage to the CDs (maybe they actually do?) Anyway, there´s another really simple reason to unload at a nearby beach instead of at the goal hex. If you unload at the goal hex, you will likely be shock attacked by the garrison while you unload (and still have few troops ashore). This can wipe out your entire force piecemeal.

Hartmann [/B][/QUOTE]

The alternative is to use really small transports, provided you won't be totally outnumbered when you're through. :)



Erik Rutins -> Bombardment of CDs... (6/1/2002 8:48:32 PM)

Just as an FYI, if you set that surface group to Bombardment and Patrol, they will be positioned to fight the shore installations and their bombardment will hurt the CD battery/batteries. On Surface Combat, they are positioned in the area to intercept enemy surface units. Also, get some B-17s in range and start pounding their ground units before and during the invasion.

Also, recon the heck out of a place with your planes/bombers before you decide to land there. If the Japanese moved every CD unit in the theater to Lunga, you won't know unless you do some recon first.

Glad to hear you're having fun otherwise. I think on this point it's just a matter of getting the hang of how CD / Bombardment works.

Regards,

- Erik



glen55 -> (6/2/2002 1:14:53 AM)

Thanks for the tips, Erik. I do suggest looking at this in a patch, though. Engaging shore batteries should be a separate function from general bombardment of ground troops, especially if elimination or neutralization of the shore batteries is a necessary prerequisite to a successful invasion. As I noted above, shore batteries are not hidden from warships in the way ground troops are. If the batteries are active and functioning, then the warships can target them individually, which they could never do to troops, tanks, regular artillery, etc. Unless the shore batteries are formidable indeed, I would think that a TF including several capital ships should be able to subdue them.

I would suggest that if a surface combat task force is set to follow a transport group, the surface TF would engage enemy TFs and shore batteries alike. Obviously, enemy TFs and shore batteries pose the exact same threat to the transport group.



Mark W Carver -> Re: Bombardment of CDs... (6/2/2002 2:12:53 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erik Rutins
[B] Also, recon the heck out of a place with your planes/bombers before you decide to land there. If the Japanese moved every CD unit in the theater to Lunga, you won't know unless you do some recon first. [/B][/QUOTE]

Recon! Yes, this is a very important tip and probably one of the most important aspect of the game.



Hartmann -> (6/2/2002 2:44:36 AM)

My Irvings are going *click*, *click* every turn. :)

Hartmann



juliet7bravo -> (6/2/2002 3:32:17 AM)

Do the CD's provide any firepower for the infantry during ground engagements, or are they strictly for use against enemy ships? Ditto for AA gun units.



von Murrin -> (6/2/2002 5:17:39 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by juliet7bravo
[B]Do the CD's provide any firepower for the infantry during ground engagements, or are they strictly for use against enemy ships? Ditto for AA gun units. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dunno about AA units, but CD batteries will participate in bombardment.



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