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Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> The Great Forum Hunt (6/1/2002 9:28:17 PM)
Ok this might border on heresy (so I am keeping an eye out for tar wielding loonies as of now). Been wondering off an on at no specific regularity.... Is the world devoid of anything outside of Matrix that is obviously wargamer friendly? I am of course wondering if I am merely suffering small town disease. Ya know when you never have seen the world outside of a little community and all that sort of stuff. I have seen a few other wargaming sites in my time, well seen them, I didn't stay long. I have even seen other sites that had Steel Panthers stuff available to the devoted addict. But when I go online, aside from a writer friendly site I like, I end up at Matrix. Does the world truely revolve around Matrix? Just wondering if there are actually any other wargaming forums out there worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as Matrix. I am not sure anyone else has pondered this. But as much as a net wanderer as I am, I have never stumbled across anything else that grabs me. Alas this might open up a situation where people find other forums and detract from being here at Matrix. Risky I admit. But then we might also end up "acquiring" people from other forums. It's possible eh. Just so we know right away though. I am deleting my own interest in the A3R mailing list and oddly enough the ASL mailing list. Might seem odd Sarge would actually not be interested in something ASL admittedly. But I know those two (and they have to many candidates for Art of Wargaming in my experience). They are not up to my expectations that I have grown to enjoy from being here at Matrix (Matrix really spoils the dicerning gamer to some extent). Any links to any Forums that any have to offer, that are up to code as it were, are welcome. Is anyone else interested like me?

KG Erwin -> Another forum for you to visit (6/1/2002 10:25:09 PM)
Les, there's also http://wargamer.com. There's a pretty good forum which covers all types of wargames, and you'll see some familiar names (myself included).

Paul Vebber -> (6/2/2002 1:32:58 AM)
Both Miitarygameronline and wargamer forums seem to be ghost towns withthe exception of CC talk at MGO and Russo-German war talk at wargamer. wargamer seems to have ended the month 550$ in the hole for May. Again I have to ask WERE ARE ALL WARGAMERs??? Folks have said there are over 1 million, yet when you can only get 1400 folks (teh steady cap that both wargamer and MGO seem to have bumped up against...) and both places are lucky to have 100 posts TOTAL on any given topic...) INdividuals may be out there wargaming, but as a community where the heck are we???

Supervisor -> (6/2/2002 5:07:10 AM)
If there not in the forums, hopefully the're just out enjoying their games. I never used to visit forums in the past unless I had problems, now they have become a mainstay because of the info found within.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (6/2/2002 6:43:06 AM)
Where are all the wargamers? Hmmmm Something that just occurred to me actually as I sit here. Ok wargames basically got their real commercial break in the 70's (yes there was wargaming before Tactics II, but it wasn't quite the scale it achieve after board games arrived). Now the people that were the wargaming crowd then, were mostly college dudes and young history nuts. Those same people are now rapidly becoming the 40 something crowd it appears (or at least Matrix seems to have quite the stockpile of over 30's representation). Therefore it stands to reason, that wargaming might be entering a first time ever cycle. It's just circumstance perhaps, that this cycle is occuring during a plateau of computer gaming evolution additionally. Non traditional wargaming styles may have robbed partially the next generation of classic style wargamers (by classic I am pointing my finger at us turn based hex loving dinosaurs). Before the computer, there was no argument over "realism" basically. RTS games and FPS games just plain didn't exist. Kind of makes you ponder "where would wargaming be today if the computer had not arrived?" Well it's not entirely the computers fault of course. RTS andf FPS games might never have been made for that matter. But today, we are beset with a need to perhaps rebuild the next generation of gamers maybe a tad more than might have been the case. I firmly believe that each generation sees those that are predisposed to wargaming. But a good handful of the replacements wandered off into other new aspects of conflict simulation. It remains to be seen if wargaming will come out of this slump fast or slow. 5 years from now I will just be 5 years older. But like vets, eventually those that gave the boost to the wargaming hobby in the 70's will no longer be quite so actively gaming. I can name several hobbies that have not really been around much longer than 50 years actually.

scimitar -> (6/2/2002 2:45:31 PM)
Les, First of all, like you when I'm surfing on Internet I'm always finishing to the Matrix forums! Here is another site with forums, not principally dedicated to wargaming, but with sections on our hobby: http://www.theaerodrome.com It's a site dedicated to the pilots and aircrafts of WWI. Very interrestive for everyone who likes Hanriots, Fokkers, Nieuports and so on. There is a section on boardgames (Dawn Patrol, Wings, Richthofen's War,...) but also another one on WWI flight sims. And, for the modellers, there is also a very interrestive section on WWI model making (you can by exemple discuss with people from Czech company Eduard). Interrestive to note that, even if the site is WWI dedicated, SPWAW was cited and that permitted to someones to discover the game... On the other hand, I don't know what will be the future of wargaming. The conditions here in Belgium are certainly different from North America: wargamers are very few; the nearest friend I have who likes to play boardgames inhabits at 20 km from my home... Of course, things could be more easy if I was inhabiting Brussels, but it's not the case (My city is located near the Sambre river, between Charleroi and Namur). So we've here a problem of "no-proximity". Computer play (online and PBEM) helps us very much. Like you, I'm a hex, turn-based boardgame "dinosaur". As I said in another topic, my favourite boardgames are old ones: Napoleon's Last Battles; Airforce/Dauntless; Wings; (both last two are of course simultaneous play), etc... If I can compare my point of view with the point of view of my 15 years old son: he likes RTS and games "a la Diablo"; but he accepts to fight against his father on games like SPWAW and Warlords III on the PC; and games like Airforce as boardgames. So, hope the future of wargaming can be that: a melting between our "dinosaurs" point-of-view and the point-of view of the younger generation.

Fred98 -> (6/3/2002 9:40:50 AM)
Distance. Distance is a relative thing that’s for sure. Here in Australia, an Englishman migrated here. He told me that when he was a young man, he moved out of his parents house and moved 20 kilometres away. From time to time his parent came for a visit by car, and they thought it was so far that they had to stay overnight. Here in Sydney, it is common that people travel by car 50k and visit friends for dinner and then drive home again. In the country areas, it is quite common that people travel 200k by car to play in the local football match. Then drive home again. 200k is considered to be “local” in those areas. It takes 5 hours flying to cross the country from one side to the other. To travel 10 hours in an aircraft, for example to Singapore or Hong Kong is considered a short journey. Flying 20 hours to the US or 24 hours to Europe is considered long journey. And this year we can watch the World Cup on TV in prime time! Whooo! -

KG Erwin -> This is my home page... (6/3/2002 10:38:02 AM)
...when I sign on to the net. It isn't MSN or Yahoo, it's Matrix! I have the same setup at my workplace. Am I the only one who does this?

Jody -> Re: This is my home page... (6/3/2002 5:12:00 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin [B]...when I sign on to the net. It isn't MSN or Yahoo, it's Matrix! I have the same setup at my workplace. Am I the only one who does this? [/B][/QUOTE] :p I too have my work PC set up with Matrix just a different user name. I also end up at the Matrix Forums after surfing but I will admit I may not get on all the Time and looking at the amount of people from different parts of the world maybe the time difference comes into play. Jody

Possum -> (6/4/2002 10:12:37 AM)
Hello. I am mostly spending my time these days either visiting the Europa Univesalis II board (1/4) (A Most Excellent Strategy Game BTW, Derived from Empire in Arms Boardgame ), or the Morrowind Board at Games Banshee (1/2). with the reminaig 1/4 time spent on the WIR forum here with occasional forrays into the other matrix forums.

von Murrin -> Battlefront.com (6/7/2002 7:54:16 PM)
Les, Have you been there yet? They have good stuff (games), and the forums for supporting it. If you haven't, go check out Combat Mission, Airborne Assault, and Strategic Command. Besides, then you can give Matrix some free advert plugs like me! :D FWIW, I believe that kind of cross advertisement will save the hobby. I think there's a lot of gamers who found places like FPS, Battlefront, and Matrix but haven't done any serious looking beyond the first site that supports the hobby they thought was dead. :)

Hartmann -> (6/8/2002 3:44:56 AM)
It is true that most forums are 'gostthowns', which is a pity. Maybe this is sometimes the effect of having too many different forums at one site? Battlefront has quite some traffic. Without being able to explain why, I somehow like the "atmosphere" of the Matrix forums better than those at Battlefront, though, that's why I do not post often over there. If you do like history-related games in general (i.e. not only the grognard type wargames), then the Paradox forum is a place for you to visit, too. Hartmann

Raverdave -> (7/24/2002 3:27:28 PM)
I tend to get what I need right here. Years ago there used to be a great forum (can't remember the name) but due to the cost of running it they went to a subscriber system.......and lost a LOT of ppl. There used to also be a great Harpoon site, but sadly I have lost the URL for that site as well. But as I said, I get everything I need here.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/24/2002 6:53:03 PM)
It is possibly already a dead comment (I have commented elsewhere), but to add to the thread here (just in case some have not seen it elsewhere), I have recently discovered Battlefront more significantly lately. To be sure battlefront has a nice forum (it is well designed). But it is to be sure a Combat Mission forum first and last (nothing wrong with that though eh). I went there in response to a link relating to Strategic Command. I think SC is a very good new game myself. It has what the gamer wants if they like games like Advanced Third Reich. SC has the look and feel of a true board game. Of course if a board game is to "backwards thinking" in design that might be an issue. I played the Combat Mission demo as well (figured why not their downloads are quite efficiently handled). I have to say though, that CM is a game for the graphics first and game second crowd. It looks "fun" from a graphics perspective, but graphics do not determine the full value of a game in the end. It's like the old equation Armour - Firepower - Speed formula with tanks. I think CM has swung way to far in the direction of graphics, and sacrificed to much in oher areas. I for one dont have to see each and every indivdual soldier up that close. It makes it so you can only see a platoon on the screen instead of a company or battalion. It's game scale issue in the end. That and the up close graphics really aren't rendered all that amazingly well really. In assessing Battlefront's site I was forced to say that it is somewhat user friendly primarily to a supporter of CM. If you aren't into gushing on about CM odds are you won't "quite" fit in. Again not a bad thing. Just don't get upset if you expect people to get excited about Combat Leader, and they could care less. They have a good forum devoted to SC though, and a fan of SC should look there regularly. Their General forum is a bit to much like Matrix's General forum and Art of War blurred together (I myself don't find the threads to be as generally interesting , but that's just me). Final Report. Battlefront is a place a devoted wargamer must visit. But it is likely only a "haunt" to a Combat Mission fan.

Mikimoto -> links (7/24/2002 6:57:49 PM)
http://www.wargame.ch/ http://www.theblitz.org http://wargamer.com http://www.battlefront.com/ http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ http://www.hpssims.com/ http://members.shaw.ca/gcsaunders/index.html http://www.ghgcorp.com/schwerpt/index.htm http://atomic.com/ http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Links/links.html The truth is out there

davewolf -> (7/25/2002 1:53:39 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Possum [B]...Europa Univesalis II ... (A Most Excellent Strategy Game BTW, Derived from Empire in Arms Boardgame )...[/B][/QUOTE] Hey, how about a PBEM game, if I can figure it out [I]and[/I] if you're not too busy. I'd like to colonize Australia...

GYBLIN -> (7/25/2002 4:03:53 PM)
" would wargaming be today if the computer had not arrived?" i dont know but avalon hill would be kicking some major *ss!They had some awesome games for the time.:cool:

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/25/2002 7:21:30 PM)
Gyblin ya must have accidentally snipped the word "where" off the front of that sentence. No big deal of course. Not sure where Avalon Hill would be today. It is speculated that computer software was a Bridge to Far for them though. Hard to say what did them in (because I was not the owner). They died off about the same time that their venerable gaming comrade TSR went toast though. TSR died because they were obliged to produce books by a ****head press that then would stick them with unsold merchandise. Good way to go under basically. This of course was not the thing that killed AH, they jus died about the same time cooincidentally. Now the letters AH and TSR are just logos owned by people that often don't really care about the history of those letters. The advent of computer games was both a boon and a bane to a lot of wargaming companies. But evolution is rarely kind fair or generous. We have today, the ability to purchase games online. My major beef was once originally "you could never find a store that sold wargames". It was always a major drag. Today the net makes it so you can always find what you are looking for if you reeeeally want to. But the computer has also made traditional wargaming into a eye candy experience. A game like Panzerblitz was called a classic. Designs that were essentially anything but eye candy. Today we have people that are convinced Combat Mission is the greatest (I think it is just a little to "cute"). And for no reason beyond that it has pretty graphics. Graphics is no way to judge a wargame in my opinion (I don't rate women on their measurements either). If the computer had not arrived, we would still be playing games with counters that had details like those found on Advanced Third Reich (very plain) or those found in Advanced Squad Leader (impressive top down line art). I have seen a number of titles released over the last 10 years. Wargaming in the traditional way is anything but dead. But it is not an eye candy experience. For me, the most revolutionary wargaming design (since the arrival of computers) in the non cpomputer gaming field is definitely the games put out by Columbia Games (out of Vancouver area for those that don't know the company well). Their games employ larger than commonly encountered hexes, and wooden blocks such that the opponent is not always aware of the current status of the units he is facing. It's a simple trick but a very effective one. They have it all, from Civil War and Napoloenic, to a full scale Modular series for WWII. They have a design that is essentially Red side vs Blue side (which means pure strategy free of historical constraints). I personally would stack their games up against the best the computer market has to offer and say quite freely, that the computer has yet to do it as good a job of pure design superiority. But with so many of our potential wargamers being lured away by the cute games, it is predictably hard to get players to enjoy our more boring looking games. I have been happy to see that games of our sort are still being developed though by the computer trade. Strategic Command, being made right now by Battlefront, is peculiar in one aspect. It is being produced by one of the worst eye candy offenders, the people that are also the makers of Combat Mission. It almost seems out of place on thier web site. I have been wandering their forum for a week or so now, and it does seem that a lot of players think well of it, but it still attracts people that think it is "dull" looking. And I have even seen comments made by persons that want more detail. But these individuals are so pre cinditioned to "prettiness" they often can't see that a grand strategy design is not about cute counters, its about brilliant thinking. Wargaming will survive all this obsession with eye candy.The computer will eventually become what it should be, a useful tool to allow wargamers of the traditional sort, to achieve access to well designed wargames of the old board game style. The eye candy types will in time evolve into whatever they wish to be known as. Who knows, in 10 - 20 years they might be meeting in virtual rooms to have virtual wars while we grognards continue to fight old battles with dull looking counters on boring looking maps. And being that one group often uses anothers technology to its advantage, I might be playing that dull looking game in a virtual club room.

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